At least you guys Stepped up to Run. You guys did the Best you could for the Little time that you had to prepare that has to count for something. The Mag said the Road Runner had a Aluminum 2 four intake 4/7 cam swap 4.250 crank thats not a Stock stroke 3.750 is stock. Heads that flow 416 intake 285 Exhaust 13.9:1 compression. They said 615hp at the tires. The Manifolds on the car might as well be headers. A lighter car as well. They did the best they could with the short time they had to Prepare. Thats what happens when you bring a Knife to Gun Fight. Aluminum heads no Big Deal. You can not get a set of BUICK heads to Flow like those HEMI heads. Good Job guys you did the Best you could for the Short Prepare Time.
Beating a Hemi takes a very good head design, and that is just what the GM guys have in Pro Stock. I see Pro Stock as the highest form of naturally aspirated Big Block racing. The true Hemi dominated the class over 30 years ago, the current "Hemi" is not a true semi hemispherical design, but a compromise. As far as the older stock heads go, the Hemi is by far the best design for all out flow and will outflow any of the wedge heads of the era. It was penalized in every class that it raced in, both in the NHRA and Grand National organizations. I love seeing the big Buicks hauling the mail down the track. The torque is amazing and the cars are beautiful. They can beat the Hemi when the cubic inches are kept close to stock, along with the compression, and the gearing is oriented for low end torque. This is why the 440 was able to outperform the Hemi given the right circumstances.
Stage 1 vs. Hemi I know as well as everyone else, on both sides of this, that the factories send their top vehicles to the magazines. If you can show me better times than the ones from back in 1969-70 that change the original 50 fastest list I'll go with that. Any race today will be far from the truth. If you can find two stock cars that run identical times, on the same tires etc., as in that list, then put slicks on or make whatever mods you choose, then you can judge them again. None of this matters anyways, even if the Buick was 2 seconds slower, IT LOOKS BETTER! Even though I'm a Buick man, I'd take a clean Hemi car any day, in fact, any clean original muscle car because they are all nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I say yes, and not just because its my car. The engine made enough hp to run the number, but we lost something once it got off the dyno and went into the car. Could be trans, could be converter, could be rear. I think the converter is way off myself. We have the converter out and going in for some changes, and we will see what happens. We WILL get it sorted out and running the number. I understand he was at the track 5 or 6 times before the race with his current engine combination. The car had been a track car in the past though. I would have loved to have had that amount of prep time. Good question. I will give you my opinion in two parts, but yes, Daves RR is definitly capable of a 9 second pass in the trim it was in in Cordova. However, we will never see it happen says Dave. First, when the FAST cars first broke into the 11's, everyone said the conditions were perfect, and that it would never be duplicated. A few years later, one of the FAST cars (a Buick) went into the 11.30's. Again, the statement was made that the conditions were perfect, and the cars had likely met their performance limit. Shortly thereafter, the record was set again, again by a Buick, at 11.17. By this time though, everyone had stopped guessing that the performance limit had been met, and all of the FAST regulars had begun shooting to be the first into the 10's. That feat was accomplished by Wayne Nelson's L88 Corvette, but has since been matched by another Chevy, a MOPAR and of course a Buick. Sooooo, I will reserve any comments about the true performance of these cars as time will answer that for us soon enough. Second, I strongly feel we can make the power to run deep into the 10's with our current combo, and once the car is sorted out. Ultimately though, we are going to run out of volumn with our engines. The HEMI can just move more air than our 455's with its big aluminum intakes, 1500 cfm carbs, 425 cfm heads, and excellent exhaust manifolds. Additionally, the HEMI guys are allowed to run non original and new blocks, heads and intakes that have had the benefit of years of refinements and improvements while us Buick guys must make due with 36 year old parts from an Electra we found in the junkyard. Not to mention their cars just plain weigh less. Our Electra intake manifolds, 750 cfm q jets, limited cylinder heads and log jam exhaust manifolds are a big hurdle, not to mention the heavy luxuriousness of our GS's. I dont think the time is now, but eventually we will run out of potential with our luxury car engine design. :Smarty:
Jim, Buick being the present "underdog" in this matchup is simple mathmatics...in the future that may be different. The results of this combined effort to put your car down the track is very impressive...Great Job Everyone!
I just read the article yesterday and came to the conclusion, that in bone stock form the Buick wins by a nose. What they ran in round three was basically, as stated before, two cars that were dressed to look stock other than slicks but underneath were race cars. That being said, I consider in a moot point. The Hemi guys had plenty of time leading up to the event to prepare while it took forever to find a Buick guy to stand up. Thanks Jim. I was shocked when I read Gessler backed out. What happened there? I own a Mopar and a Buick but have leaned toward Buick power a little more because of the disrespect we get over all. I hope the fact that we were caught using aluminum heads don't give us a black eye, but I expect it will to some. I doubt there would have been much of a difference either way. Like any sequal, the longer they go the more watered down they get and the farther they stray from the basic essentials i.e. stock raw power. After all, that's what counts, what it is in its natural form, not all gussied up.
when the Buick is 400#'s heavier than the HEMI, who cares what material the Buick's heads are made of.................... o No: JH
www.fastraces.org Once you understand the rules behind F.A.S.T.. You will have answered your own question. :beer Patrick
I think the Hemi was 3725 with driver, Jim's car is stated as weighing 3915 in his sig, is that without the driver, or is it a different car? "Jim Rodgers 70 GS Stage 2 (9.86 at 134.74 mph) 3830 lbs. 70 GS Stage 1 Stock Appearing (10.88 at 121.63) 3915 lbs. GSCA Member #19 BPG Member # 1123 "
F.A.S.T> F.A.S.T. = Factory Appearing Stock Tire So how can you have F.A.S.T. with slicks??? This whole little grudge match has very little to do with F.A.S.T. racing. It was, in my opinion, a good chance to get some publicity and to sell magazines. The history of F.A.S.T. racing has more than it's share of "underdog" Buick wins. Greg "The Snake" Gessler is a tremendous competitor. His exploits with a traction limited luxo-barge motored GS deserve to become legendary. Greg has done more with a non-race bred combo than most of the factory race motored cars in the field. He did this the way that fast Buicks have always been used - making the best of what you have to work with. So now we have F.A.S.T. "except" for the tires - the one specific item named in the title. Why? Because the factory tire is the most limiting and challenging part of the whole F.A.S.T. concept. It's the equalizer that poses a challenge that cannot be overcome with more/bigger/better in the engine compartment. A painted aluminum head is much more stock appearing than some stickies hanging out of the fenderwells. This whole shootout was fascinating and featured some serious effort by all three of the car's owners with amazing results. I do not intend to insult any of the participants, but it seems a little silly to try to say that F.A.S.T. rules can apply when you have removed the most challenging requirement for F.A.S.T. racing.
Looks Like to me in the Fast Class Rules you could Run a 72 GS Small Block with a Big Block 455 Block Aluminum Heads Painted to look Stock. As Long as you have a 72 Number Carb and Intake. You are Good to go 4.500 Crank 4.350 Bore 528 Roller Cam Aluminum Rods 14.1:1 Compression 350 Trans a 12 Bolt gear with Big Ported Exhaust Manifolds and 2 1/2 Exhaust. Need about 800 HP and learn how to make it leave on PolyGlass Tires you could be King. They say nothing about the car Having to be a Big Block Car Just the Intake and carb being year right for the year of the Car
I think the engineers of both the Buick and Mopar camps are in awe of the performance that has been realized with their engines. I know talking to Dennis Manner a while back,he stated that he would never have thought the performance that has been gotten out of the Buick 455;I am sure if you talk to a Mopar engineer about the Hemi,they too I'm sure would say the same thing. As you all know,the Buick 455 was designed for grandpa's Electra and really wasn't designed for high performance duty;it only became a performance engine once Dennis Manner and his collegues created the Stage 1 and Stage 2. Getting all the muscle car engines to run this well(10 second bracket) is a monumental feat in itself. Keep up the good work guys and I don't think we'll ever see the end of this rivalry. Competition is good and it is fun. :TU:
Tom Hoover and his team were directed to design and build the most kick-ass racing engine ever built, so I'm not so sure about their surprise. They did it in record time too. OK ,maybe surprise at the #'s they put down today, but not that it is still high on the list. I am somewhat surprised that the SOHC ford or Boss 429 didn't eventually surpass the Hemi, but we know history as it happened.
Many engines have surpassed the hemi design, esecially overseas like in Formula 1, they use a pent-roof design with 5 valves. 3 liter engines putting out over 900 bhp naturally aspirated on gasoline is very impressive! That is almost 8 hp per cubic inch. For comparison, aPro Stock car puts out 1400 hp at best for a ratio of 2.8hp/ci. Before turbos were outlawed in Formula 1, the 1.5 liter Hondas were making 1100 bhp, for a ratio of 12 hp/ci. But our old dinosaurs sure are a ton of fun for a fraction of the cost.
Forgive me butting in here but I remember the FAST judges made Greg Gessler put on 72 cast heads as his were probably 70 castings or maybe 430's :eek2: . They are pretty sharp to catch that so the RR was probably legal. Anyway when I posted about the Stage 2 heads I was trying to find a way past the exhaust manifolds as that package came with hedders . Wonder how that would have turned out ?
I too have wondered if a Stage 2 could be allowed in FAST. Wouldn't it help the old Buick out? I know the intakes still limit it, but this would take away the exh. manifold problem. P.S. I too wondered why Greg Gessler passed on this race. Maybe he didn't have time to mess with it. o No:
