IMHO, when it comes to six figure cars (or any car) selling at these auction houses, you have to be very careful. If it isn't a historic car that has been documented through it's entire life, then you should start out being sceptical of that car. I personally know of a very high end muscle car that was sold at BJ that was a total rebody. And as far as I know, the only people that knew was the restoration shop, the owner-seller, and me. Mind you, I had no beef in this car and was just told by the shop how it was restored...by customer choice. It sounds like this happens more than we think. how does this happen? Well this particular shop cut every vin#, date code, and any other info'ed number off the original car and welded the pieces onto the other body. Again, IMHO. Whose at fault, the shop or the owner? I would say the owner. This particular shop is just good at what they do...restorations. Be careful out there and do your homework!
The owner is guilty in this case and the shop even more. They, of all people should know the legalities they breached.
Thank You. It is unreal to me that people think the shop is scott free from responsibility. That is beyond immoral. What is the difference between doing this and re-vining a stolen car? Is there ANY difference? Not in my book.
I guess if I agree to print currency for a customer at the printing company I work for, the Secret Service will just slap our hands if we claim, "We were just doing what the customer asked!"
As a person who has done several very high end gold resto's I have a few questions. What is the problem with the removal and reapplication of a Vin to the same car it was removed from at the end of restoration? To date I have had to remove all tags from 2 cars because of rust and other body issues to correctly perform the needed repairs. Another example, on one early 80's Regal that I was assigned in a commercial shop I removed the driver-side cowl( vin location). The car was hit by a truck backing up with steel beams in the back. The beams hit the car right at the bottom corner of the drivers windshield. Damage required the replacement of the fender, door, cowl,windshield tray, A-pillar, dash and windshield. I removed the VIN tapped it flat with a plastic hammer and punch to return it to its correct location once repairs were completed. Was this not legal? I guess if you want to kill your car just shoot it in the Vin(head) as this can not be repairedo No:
We all have our opinions neither right or wrong...that's a good thing. I stand by my opinion and again, IMHO I think the owner of the car is 100% at fault not letting be known of how the car was restored. The restoration shop is just that...they restore a car how the customer wants. JW restored a car basicaly the same way except he used the original cowl and the rest was rebodied. Big difference it was known. And where do you stop? Using that wisdom you could cut the left part of the dash and cowl out where the vin and body plate are and fit it to the body of the donor. Or you could replace every single part on the body with Chinese pieces, weld everthing together and that makes it ok? I think morally it's the owners responsibility to let it be known how the car was restored. ---------- Post added at 11:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ---------- I was referring to an automobile. Not currency... So I do agree with you, that would be wrong, especially if your customer wasn't going to let it be known it was for monopoly:grin: John, I think you hit it onthe head...
Hey, no offense taken at all - we're all here for one enjoyment only, and that's cars. :beers2: But I still take issue with your point. The hobby is a big tent and has all kinds of people with varying levels of interests and expertise. I once to a cruise and speak with an owner of a '69 Chevelle SS 396 and notice the bench seat and then ask him what model Chevelle it was. He said "Super Sport," which was the wrong answer. See, the SS package was available on the 300 Deluxe post and hardtop, Malibu hardtop or convertible, or El Camino. The bench seat led me to think it was one of the rarer, cheaper models with the SS package. My point is that he owned the car while I hate Chevys, so we have an owner that doesn't know a lot about the history of his car....and he isn't unusual in my experience.
On my Suncoupe we used duct tape over the data tag and did not remove the vin its made from steel. I am sure the data tag has some blast marks but it was not removed. The car was plastic media blasted and they used sand on the floors. As to this car from Thortons website it sounds as if they were the owners. If they as advertised are the best A body restoration company out there then they should be able to spot a fake or restamp. The BJ footage sure made it sound as if it was all legit. But as usual they cover themselves against lawsuits. I remember how they had a real Ramcharger car totally restored and dropped the hammer just over 2 minutes. The owner lost huge. BJ says they do not make any claims as to how long they must keep it on the block. The owner chained the wheels together and was going to file a lawsuit. He lost
yeah and make it look less like an over stamp. Damn but weed from 1970 must bs awfull moldy by now. LOL problaly from the guy that said there was only 30 something 73 4 speed stage 1s. But yuppie idiots don't carry them on rodeo drive. Didn't they get into legal trouble over the " Kennedy" Ambulance last year. It does look like Thortons may be the starter of this hoax. But may have gotten it that way. But kind of fishy that why had to do metal work on the cowl tag. I would guess something was up, if they didn't have before and after proof they need to do anything. But then again pictures can be photoshopped. But this is the first I have hear about Thorntons. I can ask my best friend about them. If he has heard of them if they are that good at least his Dad should know of them. His dad is a retired Olds then GMC executive. He is active in the Olds club. Tim
I talked to my buddy today after I read this, he does work for them and when this came out he asked Jeff Thorton about it and Jeff told him when they got the car all the paper work was in it. Were they told it was real you really need to talk to all persons involved.
Um ok?? Not sure what that has to do with this story but ok. Are you saying that maybe the buyer of the Olds isn't that knowledgeable about the car so it is ok? Not quite sure of the reason for that bit of info. Funny thing is one of my brothers actually owns a bench seat SS396 car. His is a 68 and I have a friend that has a 69 SS396 bench seat car as well. This is a real Rallye Red 442 right here...
I'm trying to suggest an owner's lack of knowledge isn't necessarily tied to something more sinister like fraud.
Sorry I missed your question. So I will answer. There is a big, big difference. Neither the car being restored or the donor car was stolen. But I have a couple questions for anyone. Where in the United States law does it show it to be illegal to restore or fix a car using parts or the body shell (which is a part) from another car? I'm not saying there isn't a law against it, I just can't find one. If you had to choose between the two. Would you rather have a car that was restored with all new floor, trunk, inner outer wheel wells, quarters, ect, using nos or aftermarket parts welded together by a shop? Or using parts and the shell from a parts car that had no rust that was put together at the cars factory, with factory welds and all? BTW I don't have a rebodied car. I just find this subject interesting. In fact I have a car(s) with all there original sheet metal and glass. I could be wrong but I believe even Duane has an nos or used sheetmetal part on his '71 GSX that has his original vin and or date code welded back on...is that wrong? Sorry to the op if this is a hijack, and if you would like I will delete my posts.
Regardless of Thorton's practice in this instance, the new norm seems be the 3 R's of today's hobby: Rebody, Rivet, & Restamp (each as required for "restoration").
Since that necessarily involves swapping VIN tags (or re-stamping new VIN numbers), I'm sure you'll find laws in every single State that heavily penalize that.
In AZ you need to get authorization to re-frame a car. I would guess that it is the same for a body also. You just show that you own both and they notate it on the vehicle record.
I didn't say anything about restamping new vin numbers. Do you have a link to that law? I can't find one...
You said How that can be done without switching VIN tags or re-stamping is beyond me. I bet a visit to your State's DMV website will yield very threatening warnings against doing such things without telling DMV and filling the necessary paperwork. If you are that interested, do the research. ---------- Post added at 09:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ---------- Similar to CT. But I bet the owner is not allowed to mess with the VIN tags himself and has to have DMV do it.
