What's the Deal with the buick/Rover head for TA Performance?

Definitely puts it out of my budget.

Jim

 

They are also coming out with an intake to work with the new heads but when i asked if it was for a 215, 300 or 340 they were surprised to hear that they all have different deck heights.


errrmmmmm.

i certainly hope that wasn't Mike that said that. if they wanted to get really fancy, they could design the 215 intake and then sell spacer plates depending on if you had the 300 or 340/350.

 

OUCH...

So, I could purchase a set of assembeled Stage 3 heads for $2650.. and the heads that are made with less material, smaller valves, flow less, LARGER CUSTOMER BASE (how many millions of SBB and rover varients were produced as opposed to the 400-430-455's?), etc. are going to be at least $350 more a set?

"due to the market they are targeted towards (england/australia)"
Someone please explain to me why we are trying to rape our cousins across the ponds?

I was going to build an aluminum headed 300 or 340 (or 350, if they fit), but now, I'm out.

I'll stick to ported irons.:af:

 

i'm sure the price is because the current aftermarket heads available in Australia and England are $4500 a set therefore they would feel like they are getting a bargain at $3000-$3500 for a set of TA's.

when i was told the price, i was told they had substantial development costs involved in these heads. this doesnt make any sense to me because everybody knows that the v6 head is identical minus the missing cylinder and they already have an aftermarket v6 head.

 

From Kevin Jackson, Sidcup, UK:

"Jim,

Thats bad news on the price and would make them about 2450.00/$4000.00 in the UK with shipping, duty and our dreaded VAT.

That is twice the price of the Real Steel Merlin heads which includes their own rocker covers, these heads are good for 330+ BHP out the box on a 5 Litre engine with the RS Tornado cam.

Kevin."

So they aren't altogether thrilled with that idea either.

Jim

 

Any links to the steel merlin heads?

 

Sean
here is their website.
http://www.realsteel.co.uk/

 

yeah, page 6 of their catalog quotes 1225.28 for a PAIR.
http://www.realsteel.co.uk/section1.pdf

TA is ways out from production yet but that's something for them to keep an eye on. no point in knee capping yourself before you even get started.

TA might also want to look at some of the beefing some of these other companies have done. RealSteel notes that their exh seats are extra hard so the head can be used with exotic fuels like LPG ( much more common in the euro zone than it is here ) and they've got extra rocker pedestals to stiffen the valve train.



as far as the 350 short block+Rover head goes, that would be a major market for the intake and adapted cam. all the small block Buick guys from 1961-67 and beaucoup Rover guys up to 2004 could get crazy amounts of displacement by swapping a 350 short block under the heads they already own. while this wouldn't help TA much with extra head sales it would definitely help amortize the expense of the cams and intake.

 

Interesting, I found another thread on these heads here:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...n F85" heads for the Rover V8 from Real Steel

And here is a direct link to the company:

http://www.realsteel.co.uk/

I agree, 350 bottom end is the way to go compared to costly stroking kits that still leave them at 305 cid. The 350 can bore out to 360 cid easily.

The issue of the different deck heights on the various SBB makes building one intake for all the SBB a pretty tricky thing to do. Spacer plates are not pretty but maybe the only option since machining material off for the lower deck height versions would be pricey since there is a lot of material to remove. As we have seen, a 215 intake works on a 300 with spacers shown by Sean Easton who runs 12s NA with his 300.

 

If we can port the realsteel heads to make 600 hp NA then boost 30 psi on top of that I would be happy.

 

If we can port the realsteel heads

ya, but that's not going to make TA very happy, now is it? :idea2:

 

I thought TA had a good thing going when they were expecting their pricing to be in line with the V6 and big block heads but now I'm not so sure. Their competition has a bigger presence in the market, has been there longer, and has more experience with the engines. (Can you imagine not knowing about the different deck heights? I cannot!) So I think most buyers are going to go for the proven product. Really, I see no advantage of the TA heads over the Real Steel heads. Simply claiming they are "better" isn't going to convince many people in that market. Pricing would have given them a big advantage but without that, well, best of luck to them but I'm glad I have other options. Choosing to produce a product for the foreign market without considering the domestic one is to my mind a poor strategy.

Jim

 

There is no set price, anything that anyone hears is just a guess. There's no way of knowing what the price will be, we aren't even done machining the prototype heads yet, let alone being able to calculate machining costs, manufacturing costs etc. Also, the estimate of $3000 that you were told is for assembled heads, complete with valve job, springs valves etc.

I dont think everyone knows or understands that the Stage 3 and 4 heads are just modified Stage 2 heads, and that we didnt make the Stage 2 patterns. We bought them premade and just essentially fixed them and started producing heads. Same with the V6 heads, we didn't make the patters, we bought the M&A head patterns and made a few modifications to them. We really don't have any developmental cost into the big block or V6 heads, any cost that we do is modifications and the cost of buying them (which was still substantial). In retrospect, while you may think that the Rover head was easy and cheap to make because its our V6 head with another cylinder, it was actually a really involving project. We started the whole thing from scratch (unlike all of our other heads) and as such means the cost was much much more. A lot of time and money was spent on machining a V6 head with a 13 degree valve angle so that we could get bigger valves in the Rover head, filling it with bondo and re-machining over and over to make sure everything lines up and then having the actual patterns made, not to mention a bunch of other little things.

And no we're not "trying to rape our cousins across the ponds", they're actually the ones setting the price after we figure out what the costs will be, not us.

 

I'm sorry but the words came right out of your dads mouth and he said they would be more money because of the price heads were selling for overseas and they are your target market. he is the owner right? wouldnt he have a good idea on pricing?

 

First, Im not sure where you have the understanding that these heads were going to be in line with our big block and V6 heads, we never said anything to that affect. Second we'll already have a price advantage over our competitor, if say the heads end up being $3k for an assembled set, thats already cheaper than the $3-4 for a bare set of wildcat heads. Plus our heads will perform better. Dad knows that the 300/340 deck heights arent the same but yes he didnt know about the 215, god forbit he doesnt have them memorized cut him some slack :moonu: this is all new to him. When we entered the V6 market by making our first product, the V6 block, he didnt know much about those engines either. But look our product is now powering the fastest TSO cars and its making close to 2000hp. The block was the first V6 thing we made and guess what? he didn't know the deck height of the 231 back then either. And just to clarify, these heads are for the foreign market, he never thought about the domestic market until you guys started talking about putting them on 300/340s and possibly the 350. Why? Because the foreign market came to us asking for the heads. We know they'll sell, the guys down in Australia that race the Rover engines are dying for the heads and it just keeps spreading because they'll be better and cheaper than whats available.

No, tell me how you can have a good idea on pricing when you haven't even added up how much it costs to pay the man running out CNC to write the program to machine the heads, and then run them on a day to day basis when we arent even done. Or how much the heads cost us to buy when we haven't been billed for heads yet because we haven't placed an order besides having 4 prototype heads made, that cost will be different than production costs. Or adding up all the costs of the pattern maker to make the patters, make changes, but supplies, pay our guy for his development time machining a V6 head to get the valve angle geometries among numerous other expenses that I'm not listing. Whatever he told you he was pulling out of the air, it was not the price. I'm trying to make a page for the catalog and just general chit chat with him I cant get him to give me a price, let alone give the public a firm price. And keep in mind when he says "they would be more money because of the price heads were selling for overseas and they are your target market" the price of competitor Wildcat heads overseas is $3-4k for a set of unassembled heads whereas the ballpark figure of $3k you were told is for an assembled set plus a superior head design, your already way ahead of whats overseas.

 

And just to clarify, these heads are for the foreign market, he never thought about the domestic market until you guys started talking about putting them on 300/340s and possibly the 350.

do you guys have any 340s sitting around? would it be possible for you to mock up a 350 short block with the 340 intake and heads on it?

 

Honestly Bob no we dont. To be truthful we've never built a 340 and dad said he never had the thought of sticking the heads on a 300/340 cross his mind because there's such a small market for it. If we did you can bet I'd be playing around with something. Once a set of heads are done I'll mock them up on a 350 for everyone to see and walk me through and ask questions etc. If we had an intake that would be great because we have 350 blocks and we'll have the new heads, the only intake we have is some stock Rover intake while its still somethin, that's all we have. A set of factory Rover heads, a Rover block and intake that we've used for mocking up as we've gone along.

 

OK, so maybe I misinterpreted post #116: "a set should cost under $3000 fully assembled..." (Mike Jr.)

And I know Mike doesn't take kindly to any suggestions as to how he should run his business so I'll make it short. Maybe he's just too busy to look at the entire market even if the biggest part of that market is in his own back yard.

But there were plenty of people on here trying to help. We all gave freely of every bit of relevant information we could dredge up, and did a great job of analyzing the data to define the market for him. So it ought not to be a one way street.

Jim

 

Yep and I tell him about everything that you guys have come up with and he thinks its great. He's taking the alternative methods and options into more concern now whereas he wasn't initially because this whole deal started as us simply creating and manufacturing the heads for the foreign market because thats who approached us and asked us to make em.

 

I remember those days. On a phone call back before any of this got going Mike asked me what I thought of the idea and I was for it, and I thought I mentioned the other SBB engines, but memory can be a funny thing, and he was too focused on the immediate to hear it anyway. For the most part we've been relying on you to carry the important info since then, and I think you've done a pretty good job of it.

But I know for a fact that if you guys can see your way clear to cut the domestic market a break of some sort it'll really pay off in the long run. Just the "good will" alone will more than pay the cost in increased sales. What sort of a break that might be is up to you guys. We're all hurting financially, but even good intentions are worth something.

Jim