What's the Deal with the buick/Rover head for TA Performance?

Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by skylrk62, Feb 17, 2009.

  1. Any news? Or is it top secret? Or disappointment?
     
  2. Some guy make flow testing those TA-heads, Merlin heads, TVR 500 heads/stage 4, and his home made stage 3 heads.. TA-heads flow only 25cfm more than rover/tvr stage 4 heads and merlins at full lift approx 0.6".. Tested same flow bench and same pressure and same day..

    Results 25"

    Standard 3.5 heads max 120cfm
    Stage 3 41mm valve self ported 139cfm
    Stage 4 TVR 500 heads 43mm valves, very nicely ported 149cfm
    Merlin heads self ported 149cfm
    TA TRS heads 174cfm
    Both the merlin heads and the TA TRS heads had poor flow at small valve lifts compared to the stage 4 and stage 3 heads.

    He didint tell how mutch worse they are at low lift, but i undrstand they are a lot..

    I do not understand what could be wrong? Rover heads will give defenedly mutch better power curve hole rpm range.. And how you will get 0.6" valve lift, using some custom cam and 1.8:1 rocker ratio.. :pray: he he.. Waiting for first dyno run..
    Like to hear manufacturer commet..
    I do not want to spend 2-3000$ for only 25fcm for full valve lift.. If you port those heads, you will get more top end cfm and need still more valve lift..

    I think i will stay STD ported heads and try slightly weld those and use 1.73" inlet valve.. 1.92" is far to big..:laugh:
     
  3. roverman

    roverman Well-Known Member

    >> FWIW, Todd McKenzie ported my Merlin heads, Ferrea 1.77/1.5" valves, flowed at 28". Int. = .100"/60cfm., .200"/121.8,.300"/180, .400"/210,.500"/216.5, .600"/219.2, tru a 3.75" bore. My roller cam blanks will make .395" lobe lift,(.600" lift with 1.519/1 rocker). Pure verbal, from "Mike Sr", at TA is Triumph Rover Spares, have ported the TA heads to flow 300 cfm /no flow bench sheet ! OZ is breaking stock cranks, quite readily. Cheers, roverman.:cool:
     
  4. Any picks of your ported Merlins?
    But i still do not believe those figures.. Then i believe if you give me an dynosheet of your engine witch give over +400hp.. Those readings dont tell anything yet.. Theoritically it is possible, but i think gas speed is quite low? And it will flow over 40cfm more than STD merlin head..
     
  5. roverman

    roverman Well-Known Member

    >> I like better, you call up Todd McKenzie, and tell him he's lying, and doesn't know anything about his craft/lol !!! How bout' you post your flowbench reports, including airspeeds and dynosheet ? roverman.:spank:
     
  6. You will found my home modded head flow data if you read couple of my earlier posts on the same page.
    Flow speed is ~250ft/s, measured 28". And maxium flow is 166cfm@0.6" and +171cfm@0.7" Those numbers dosent tell anything to real world horsepower..

    This is dynosheet witch is in the web.. it will made 381hp/~540Nm in year 2011..
    I will rise CR to 11.8 and fit megasquirt 3X , also new valve springs because in year 2011 they will bounche and engine dosent rev more than 5400rpm. 2012 it will made 393hp and 554Nm. ~350hp at the wheels..

    http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/1899/dynou.jpg

    Now i will fit M256 cam, i think go for 1.65 or 1.7 chevy style rockers.. New home made heads (slightly weld ports and 44mm inlet valve), new piper timing chain, Serpentine oil pump etc.. Hope to get 430hp/near 570Nm..

    It is quite palely/bland to spoke some flowbench numbers without any real world dynosheet..

    Like i always say..
    http://www.automotivecomp.com/v8engines.htm
    5.0 WILD CAT ENGINE 398 BHP @ 5950 RPM, 340FTLB @ 5600 RPM
    Includes the latest style 47mm crossover throttle bodies for even better flow, CNC ported heads, 96mm big bore top hat liner block, roller rockers, solid cam, camshaft and 10.7:1 CR.
    It will use M248 camshaft and only 5hp more than my home modden engine.. So slightly disappointment in my mind..


    ps: I do not know who is Todd McKenzie, some astronaut? :bla:
     
  7. roverman

    roverman Well-Known Member

    For far too long, Wildcat was the "only" aftermarket head supplier. Much has improved, since then. It's unfortunate Europe, seems to be reliant upon England/Whales, to supply hp. producing parts. They are "behind the times". A roller cam is the best method, on a small base circle cam, in a serious sbb/RV8. It's also unfortunate, that TRS is very tight lipped about their heads, just like Real Steel. If you think Todd Mckenzie is an astronaut, then you must be comparing the HP. he makes, from his head developement, compared to yours... roverman :blast:
     
  8. 66gsconv

    66gsconv nailhead apprentice

    Trying to follow this, Is anyone using TA rover heads for these numbers ? Looking at the 300 stroker the TA heads might really wake it up and it already had decent #s:Brow:
     
  9. roverman

    roverman Well-Known Member

    >> I and Daniel Jones, have a set. TMK, neither of us has personal/ported, flow results. IF you buy a bare set, for approx. $1,500., might "not" get them ported in Finland, England or Whales. Jus sayin... Good Luck, roverman.:Dou:
     
  10. Quite awkward :) Too disappointment to get real figures..

    Usually those USA head flow cabability and USA power figures are over optimised.. Your dyno and flow bench will show mutc mutch better readings than any others rest of the world..
    And those wild cat. TA, Merlin heads are sold hundreds, and only some 1-2 dyno sheet available.. So, need more fact that i can say Im wrong.. 1-2 dyno sheet is not reliable..
    333hp wild cat 5.0.. http://www.mgcostello.com/index_files/Costello_technical_section_ultimate.htm
    Like i say roverman. You do not have any fact to real power.. :3gears: So please send some fact, then we can compare my and yours.. Like i say, I`m amateur, not professional... And those heads are my first fully ported unit..
    And i have seen many many engines witch will give more power than head will ever flow.. If you belive that flow bench readings is some magic and absolute maxium for power, its your opinion.. Im disagreement..
     
  11. Dan Jones

    Dan Jones Well-Known Member

    > piper timing chain kit as JP-performance is piece of sh..t

    What was the problem with the JP Performance timing chains? Do you know who made the chain itself (it should be imprinted on the chain links)? Be aware that most companies don't manufacture the timing sets sold under their brand. Some like JP Performance will make the gears but others just buy the gears and chains from separate manufacturers and box them up. We've had a real problem with timing sets that used to be good quality switch to cheaper, inferior, chain suppliers. Rolon (from India) are one of the worst. I had one wear more in 10000 miles than another brand did in 163000 miles. Another guy I know lost an engine when the Rolon chain failed. Iwis (Germany), Renold (France) and Daido (Japan) are all good chains.

    > Results 25"
    > Standard 3.5 heads max 120cfm
    > Stage 3 41mm valve self ported 139cfm
    > Stage 4 TVR 500 heads 43mm valves, very nicely ported 149cfm
    > Merlin heads self ported 149cfm
    > TA TRS heads 174cfm

    While the owner of those heads originally posted pictures of the CNC ported TA TRS heads, the heads he purchased and flow tested are unported. It's not clear if they were assembled by TRS or were the fully assembled unported heads from TA Performance. He spent a lot of money on the rocker set up but, for some reason, wants to run the heads in unported form.

    > I do not understand what could be wrong?

    Low lift flow is strongly influenced by the valve job and backcut on the valves, along with the bowl area immediately under the valves. In bare form, the TA heads have very deep valve seats with a bit of ridge and need at least a bowl blending.

    > Rover heads will give defenedly mutch better power curve hole rpm range.

    Based upon the single data point posted, I don't see how one could predict anything about the performance. At a minimum, you need to know the area under the lift curve in your lift range, along with port dimensions (especially minimum and maximum port cross-sectional areas.

    > using some custom cam and 1.8:1 rocker ratio.

    The TA Performance heads are designed around a 1.65:1 rocker ratio.

    > If you port those heads, you will get more top end cfm and need still more valve lift..

    Not necessarily. Proper porting and a valve job can improve low and mid lift flow substantially. I run heads on one of my Ford 351 Cleveland V8s that are capable of 385 CFM at high lift but I only run a cam of around 0.600" lift (standard 1.73:1 rocker ratio hydraulic roller street cam that peaks around 6000 RPM on the engine combo) so the heads are ported to provide 330+ CFM at 0.600" lift. Intake valves are 2.19" in diameter and low lift flow is excellent. They work great on the street.

    > use 1.73" inlet valve.. 1.92" is far to big..

    Why is it you think 1.92" intake valve is far too big for a 5.2L V8?

    > i think gas speed is quite low?

    Why do you suspect the gas speed is quite low through a 1.77" intake valve? It's easy enough to compute the intake velocity assuming the usual 85 to 90% throat area. Quite the opposite, large displacement Rover V8s usually suffer from too high an intake velocity.

    > Flow speed is ~250ft/s, measured 28".

    Flow speed on the flow bench at a particular flow depression is an incomplete picture. The flow speed that is important is the peak speed in the running engine. It's a well observed phenomena that when peak induction speeds exceed 0.6 Mach or so, increasing the minimum cross-sectional area will generally make more power.

    > Like i always say..
    > http://www.automotivecomp.com/v8engines.htm
    > 5.0 WILD CAT ENGINE 398 BHP @ 5950 RPM, 340FTLB @ 5600 RPM ... only 5hp more than my home modden engine.. So slightly disappointment in my mind..

    A torque peak very near the HP peak is usually a sign something is wrong with the engine but 398 HP at 5950 RPM is 351 ft-lbs so the engine has apparently not yet reached its torque peak, much less its HP peak. Also, when it comes to engines, you have to be careful comparing apples and oranges. A single difference in the build can make a big difference in the result. For instance, the intake tract length can dominate an engine build. With 5.0L small block Ford V8s running the long runner EFI intakes (GT-40 or similar), you can throw good heads and a fair bit of cam at it and the power peak won't move much. Install a short runner intake and the power peak moves up RPM and the peak power is much higher. In your case, you have a short tract length independent induction system that may make your heads look better than they really are. That would make it hard to compare to other engines with different induction set ups.

    > ps: I do not know who is Todd McKenzie, some astronaut?

    He's a well respected professional head porter in the United States.

    > Trying to follow this, Is anyone using TA rover heads for these numbers ? Looking at the 300 stroker the TA heads might really wake it up and it already had decent #s. Bob-St Louis MO.

    Hi Bob. Shouldn't be long before the weather cooperates and will put the heads on your bench.

    > Usually those USA head flow cabability and USA power figures are over optimised.. Your dyno and flow bench will show mutc mutch better readings than any others rest of the world.

    What are you basing that observation upon? If you are basing it upon US hot rod magazines, they exist to cater to the interests of their advertisers. The dyno and flow bench I test on are conservative, measuring 4 to 5% low compared to the calibrated dynos used for the Engine Masters Competition (two separate engines tested on both dynos).

    > i have seen many many engines witch will give more power than head will ever flow..

    I don't follow this statement. If the flow is choked, you're not going to be making more power.

    > If you belive that flow bench readings is some magic and absolute maxium for power

    They are only a tool but, if you understand how to use them and interpret the results, they are a fantastic tool.

    FWIW, the TA Performance Rover heads are relatively new on the market in the United States. As I understand it, the first batch went to Australia. A second batch was later cast but delivery delayed when TA found a problem with some of the heads not passing inspection that was traced to improper heat treatment. That held up delivery of my heads. I've had them for a few months now but have not sent them out for porting yet. I'd guess there aren't many engines up and running yet with the TA Performance Rover heads in the United States.

    Dan Jones
     
  12. Jp-performance chain is loose like rover original when i fitted it. I have fitted couple of piper, kent cams timing chain set and chain is not loose. It is tight, but not loose like jp-performance. Not sure if my chain is some CHINA made? Im now making cam swap and i will see how loose it is after 10 000km driving..

    1.94" valve is quite big.. You will get huge hp numbers for 1.73" valve also.. Theoritically +450hp or more..
    Excample.. FORD OHC 1.77" valve and home modded head will push 256hp at the flywheel.. Theoritically there is potential for rover also..
    And i like to see an excample for stroked Rover V8 witch will use those Buick 300 ally heads.. No dyno results at all.. They are not that rare like TA-heads etc..

    And an excample of big valve wild cat heads..
    http://www.mgcostello.com/index_files/Costello_technical_section_ultimate.htm
    333hp.. Similar manifold as mine.. So i can compare this engine to mine..

    And im not fan of CNC heads etc.. But if ported rover heads will give +430hp of J.Eales dyno and TA-head will give 460hp of the same dyno and same bottom end, and worse low and mid range torque.. What could be explain this? +30hp is not so impressive and not worth of money..
    But if the ported TA-heads will flow say +280cfm. Thats about near 590hp? You wont get that mutch of hp easily.. Or ever.. But if your head will flow +180cfm.. Thats 380hp? You can get this or more with Rover.. Im i right?

    Like excample this FORD OHC.. Our professional engine builder build his SPRINT car engine.. +2.0, roller rockers, agressive cam, Motech engine magnament etc.. Head will flow only 170hp.. Huge ports far to big for theoritically.. it will give 256hp @~9000rpm.. And same bottom end, better head (flow tested +200hp) give +236hp independed witch cam, exhaust, etc they will use.. So in practice it is possible if flow is choked.. Or im not sure if we mean same think.. Iwill mean you can get more power depends on head flow capacity.. It is some theoritical number, witch only indicate direction..

    And those USA HP numbers.. We have been tested couple of engines witch we have been ordered there.. Excample one LS3 engine.. I dont remember of manufacturer.. But they bromise 480hp and head flow say near xxxcfm.. We tested the engine. it will give 430hp and then we look inside the engine and take a head of.. Flow tested it.. near 50cfm is missing..
    We have got couple of more similar excamples..
     
  13. roverman

    roverman Well-Known Member

    >> Perhaps you know "Jukka", who owns a well built Morris Minor 2 door, with Merlin/Rover V8 ?
     
  14. Yes i know him.. Friend of mine..

    His merlin heads are worth for extra 11hp vs his home ported heads with stage 3 valves.. :laugh:
     
  15. So what delay`s on dyno results?

    My new own desing project.. Not ported yet.. Have to start porting near future..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Custom made scorpion 1.65 roller rockers to fit Rover V8. (Made in Finland) My own design also.. :)
    [​IMG]
     
  16. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA




    Interesting project you have there,are those factory Rover castings?And what are the scorpion rockers from,sbf? Did you move the valve locations?

    Interesting stuff,keep us posted.:TU:


    Derek
     
  17. Dan Jones

    Dan Jones Well-Known Member

    > So what delay`s on dyno results?

    I'm getting close to sending out my TA heads to be ported. I've still got another engine to spec, build and dyno before the Rover gets its turn. Originally, I wasn't planning on running the TA Performance heads on the 5.0L Rover but if they come back from porting in time, I may test them against both ported Rover heads and Buick 300 heads. Though they aren't small block Buicks or Rovers, here are the last two engines that we've had on the dyno:

    [​IMG]

    That's a 384 cubic inch Ford 351 Cleveland V8 (stock iron block and aluminum Ford 351C heads). Endurance/road race/street pump gas build made 623 HP at 6800 to 6900 RPM and and 522 ft-lbs at 5100 RPM running through the 4-into-1 shorty (Pantera) headers with 2 1/2" pipes and mufflers. The torque curve is really flat in the operating RPM range. Flow benched the heads plus all the other measurements to simulate the engine in Dynomation to optimize the cam for the desired RPM range.

    [​IMG]

    This one is larger displacement (406 cubic inches) with the same cam, 10:1 compression and some really nice owner built stainless 180 degree stepped headers:

    [​IMG]

    All aluminum V8 that weighs around 400 lbs. Street only build that made 643 HP at 6550 RPM and 585 ft-lbs at 5100 RPM.

    Dan Jones
     
  18. Start to porting heads..

    Exhaust side.. Pick inc rimmerbros stage 3 exhaust manifold gasket.. Have to port sideways also. Just made an height only..

    [​IMG]

    Inlet side.. Height is only ported, and not finished because have to machine all mounting faces to get true measurements..

    [​IMG]

    Im not sure will it make any sense, but i hope.. ;) Wondering if make measurements on flow bench after porting or not??

    And those heads are 4.6l range rover heads year 96-
    Roller Rockers are from SBC 1.65:1 ratio..
    Valves are 44/38 with 8mm stem.. Maybe have to lathe exhaust to 37mm..
     
  19. Now we made first flow bench measurements with stage 3 valves..
    It will flow 25hp more than stage 3 head what i made with my friend.
    I do not port valve guide boss, port size is smaller than stage 4 head. And port flow is zero near valve guide/valve guide boss like i estimate..
    Exhaust flow is 100% stable, no turbulance at all like stage 3 make slightly, but i round short side radius after measurements..
    But with welded heads we found that 35.5mm valve is to small vs port size like i know. We will get better figures with bigger valves..
    Inlet port maxium flow capability is approx 0.3" up to 0.43" range. Valve/thoart resist max lift flow
    Exhaust maxium flow capability is approx 0.27" up to 0.43" range. Head will out flow stage 3 head approx 30-25hp all lift range..

    Now i make fully porting job for inlet side and we machine 44/38mm valves with STD seats/aluminium.. Valve guide boss is ported away and port size is similar like my old stage 4 head
    [​IMG]

    Tight tolerance, approx 1mm clearance. 44/38mm (1.73"/1.5") valves.
    [​IMG]

    I have to measure my old home made stage 4 heads also for same bench as this welded one to compare results.. Take some time again..
     

Share This Page