Time to build the 455 ive always wanted

Yes, 6.600, Press Fit.

 

time for an update here. I spoke with Scott, my engine builder to see where we are at on my 455. he had just tore the engine apart and was in the process of cleaning everything. his first comment was "boy, this thing ingested some water at some point!" that kind of struck me as odd, but i had the same feeling. here is the story behind this engine...after i overrevved my little 350, i was in a time crunch to get the GS to move under it's own power. i purchased this SF coded 455 off of craigslist after only seeing videos of it run. the guy i bought it from said it had been built 1 year prior. i called the alleged engine builder and he confirmed that he had done the work. this knowledge, along with the video is what pushed me to pull the trigger on this purchase. when i picked up the engine, it had been under a tarp in the backyard of a home, partially exposed to the elements. still, i was in a crunch and made the purchase anyway.

once i got the engine installed, it fired right up on the first turn over. after running for a bit and working out some minor issues(leaks etc), i shut it down and changed the oil. the engine oil was milky and kind of brownish green in color. my thoughts were there must have been some condensation or water somehow had gotten into the engine. fresh oil change, fires right up and idles fine. i'm thinking-sweet, best decision ever! well, i was moving the next weekend and needed the car to move under its own power so i could drive it onto the uhaul car trailor. i never drove the car until the move was done. fast forward two weeks, i'm move complete and it's time to road test this car.

she fire's up on the first kick over and i let it idle while getting up to temp. no issues there. so i go out and jump on the interstate, with plans to loop up to the next exit(3 miles) and back to make sure everything is all in order. the torque was significantly greater than the 350, but i knew there was more. i figured i needed to do some carb/timing tuning as i had just installed the same 800cfm qjet from the 350 to this engine. as i got off on my exit(approx 5 miles of driving), i heard a metal to metal clanging sound. i'm thinking something has come loose somewhere and i could just nurse it home and address it. within one block or two of getting home, the metal on metal sound is significantly worse. it sounded like i was shaking an empty coke can with the metal tab inside of it. water temp and oil psi were all fine, so foolishly i kept driving. as i turned on my street, the engine quits and the car rolls to a stop 200m from my home.

so there you have it as far as how the engine was aquired and how the failure transpired. fast forward back to todays conversation with Scott. he tells me that one of the connecting rod bolts had backed out while the engine was running, leading me to believe there were no arp bolts there as originally briefed. Scott said thet i for sure need one connecting rod replaced, as it is nolonget straight. He also anticipates having to grind the crank a bit to correct any irregularities, but as of yet, no confirmation on that. I asked him about block damage, and he said he hadn't seen anything that was a major issue yet, but he would know more once the block was fully cleaned and magnafluxed.

so that's where i'm at gents. i should know more wither by close of business tomorrow or first part of next week as far as measurements etc so I can start getting parts ordered. with this information i just wrote, are there any issues that come up or questions that come to mind that I should be asking? this is obviously my first engine rebuild rodeo. again, more to follow next week...

 

Cool Duke, if the bores are good like they're supposed to be you may get away with just replacing a rod, new rings, bearings and a re-hone then back together? Why replace the internals if the thing was really rebuilt before you bought it unless it was "rebuilt" using the factory pistons? I have my fingers crossed for you, good luck!




Derek

 

I hope it works out that way Derek, as it seems that would be the cheapest route. Let's say it goes like that, but there are factory replacement pistons in it. i'm thinking it would still be smart to swap to forged custom pistons. Agree? considering the motor is already torn apart. With those autotec pistons you mentioned, can they be made with custom compression heights so i can get to the magical zero deck scenario without excessive milling of the block? i still plan to use the stock rods, even having to replace the one that is damaged. what would you do if you were me?

 

Yes the AutoTecs can have the compression distance customized, I believe the dish can be as well and if the bore is a bit bigger than say .030" over after the they're honed at like .033" over the AutoTecs can be ordered with a plus .033" oversize bore with the right clearance for that size.

Or if the block has never been bored just honed when it was last rebuilt, you can have the block honed to the biggest bore made all the same and order the AutoTecs what the biggest bore cleans up as saving the cost of having the block bored.

But if you have a decent set of hypereutectic or some sort of forged pistons and the bores will still be in spec when they're re-honed you might as well save the $$$ and use the pistons you have already. Remember if you make to much power you'll smoke your trans because its only rated at 450 HP. If you hit 450 HP the torque is going to be even higher than what the HP ends up as. Unless you don't mind upgrading the trans? Maybe you can try to sell the trans to a sbb guy and get the next stage up? That way you could add aluminum heads later without worrying about the trans?

What would I do? That would depended on how much cash I had to spend on the build and how fast I wanted to get back on the road with it. If you decide to keep your trans then if the pistons are newer like they're supposed to be and the bores will still be in spec after a re-hone at the power level you're trying to stay below then whatever is in there should be good enough unless you want to test the limits of that trans?

You have a lot to think about, I can't tell you what to do you need to figure that out yourself, that trans really throws a wrench in the fan. GL



Derek

 

i think that is solid advice. I bought this transmission from Lonnie at Extreme Automatics and I think it is the stage 1 unit. Per the EA website, their stage 1 unit can support 500HP/400TQ. to be honest man, i don't remember which level i purchased. i spent 2800 in total shipped to my door, but I think I had to kick in a few extra coin for the dipstick and torque converter. So, i'm pretty sure it is the stage 1 unit I ordered, listed at $1795 before shipping. their stage 2 lists for $2295 and it rated at 750HP/600TQ. I plan to keep the trans I have, and ship it back to be upgraded if I break it. I don't race the car, so I think I can make what I have last quite a while.

I have no clue as to what pistons are in the engine currently, and will make sure I evaluate whether or not to keep them once Scott gets back to me. This car is a toy, so there is no real rush here. I just want to make sure that it's done right the first time, and maintains it's dependability. Whatever compression ratio I end up with and power level I reach will be a surprise. I don't have any real goals. I mean, i'm sticking with the unported iron heads and the TA 284-88H cam I am using is well below .500' for both intake and exhaust lift. What i'm getting at, is that this isn't going to be an all out monster motor. Just a warmed up 455 with a cam that lopes and torque to pin me to the seat like the 350 wouldn't.

I will know more about the status of my block and what parts I need next week. I do appreciate the advice!!! I will report with findings and questions shortly! :TU:

 

No problem Duke, I hope this works out for you.

Only rated at 400 ft lbs you'll probably be sending the trans back for an upgrade eventually unless you make sure the secondaries don't open on the Q-jet so it doesn't go over 400 ft lbs when you stomp the go peddle? The first miles need to be taken easy anyway when you're breaking in the engine, more so to make sure there's no issues with it like a faulty lifter or something small that can cause something big? If you start hearing a vvvvveeeuuuuuuttte sound when you shift into second, that's the sound of the clutches burning up.(if your exhaust is quiet enough to hear that?)

How I got into building engines, I had a Pontiac 400 rebuilt for me from a shop that it didn't last 5,000 miles! When I took it apart I found ALL of the rod bolts finger tight! No wonder it was knocking. I ended up replacing a piston and having the rods re-conned and the crank ground and put it back together myself making sure ALL of the rod bolts were torqued!! That was about 29 years and many, many miles ago, no one has rebuilt an engine for me since! And now I have no one to blame but myself if the engine fails, knock on wood the many engines I have built for myself and others have held up well with no failures that I know of.

So yeah a few upgrades for the engine would be cool while its apart knowing that the trans will need upgrading eventually. Would be cool if it has good parts already! GL



Derek

 

Bad news Bears...still don't know the condition of the block or the measurements. But I called the machine shop and the guy told me there we're stock replacement cast pistons on it so there goes the idea of saving cash on that part. :/ not that big of a deal I suppose, considering I had planned on spending that cash anyway. Just would've been cool to save there and do something else like a disk break conversion for the rear while the engine is out and I can get to the master cylinder with ease. More to follow in a few days...

 

Spoke briefly to the machine shop this morning. Turns out I for sure spun a bearing. Currently scouting for a new crank. Scott said he had a lead on one and would know more today. I will post a wanted add up here. He said that my crank could be repaired, something to the effect of welding a journal or something. Im not real clear on that, but either way he said his recommendation was to replace it and thats what i will do. Currently, the block is at .30 over, and is going to .40 over when its said and done to have everything uniform. So i will get more information on monday as far as the block. Current plan was a very light decking in order to make a good mating surface, .10 i assume. He said the head.castings were good, and asked if i wanted to stay with the same valves but hadnt measured them. I wont know what is in there until monday afternoon when all the measuring is complete. Everything i have read says dont waste the money in iron heads and stock would be fine. I do plan to go aluminum in time, just cant afford the extra 2k+ on top of my rebuild budget. Anyone have any clear guidance on these heads? So there you have it for now. As i get more info i will post it here.

 

Aftermarket Buick 455 forged pistons are .038" overbore (not .040") so don't let your machinist go past that to for a bore cleanup if possible.

 

Thanks man. I will give them a heads up right now! :TU:

 

update from Scott,

i will try and lay tis all out in bullet format for ease of reading. i do have several questions and will embed them within each bullet statement inorder to make it easier to follow. at the end of the day, i'm excited to have the down and dirty from my machinest on the condition of my motor.

heads: Scott said that the head castings were in great shape. i don't know the numbers on them, so to assume they are original to this 70 SF coded 455 is 50/50 chance at best. i suppose that's something i should have asked him while on the phone. either way, he said the castings were solid but the valves needed replaced. he could tell that the engine hadn't been run very long, and there was nothing that warranted replacing the locks and retainers. he even recommended waiting on the springs, as the ones i have currently still showed 120psi of pressure. valve sizes-int:2.0', ex: 1.625. i do not know if they are stage 1 sizes or not, but will research that once this lengthy thread is finished. my heads cc'd at 73/74cc. that's a rather large number based off of everything i have seen and read. most dudes are looking at 64-68cc. i asked about this, and he said we weren't going to mill a bunch on these to get it down.
questions: what cc is ideal for these heads? what's the best way to get there?
having to replace the valves anyway, what size/metal type would be ideal? (going with the ta284-88H cam)

intake: i plan to replace the poston s-divider that i currently have with something better. i have been looking at the edelbrock and ta sp1 options. i don't know which would be best here. recommendations?

block: i didn't get any measurements for my block as far as deck height. infact, i didn't think of that until now. i remember Larry forwarding a link from a lunati website talking about block height and compression distance. Scott said that all he planned to do was a minor cleanup to make an ideal mating surface for the heads. i understood that at a .010 or so. i am sticking with the standard 6.600' rod, so i'm looking for advice here on piston CD selection. Scott said we are going to .038-.040 over, depending on the pistons i select. advice given here about the .038 pistons avail on the aftermarket scene was spot on. Federal mogul has a .040 option. i guess it just depends on manufacturer preference. I'm leaning towards the auto-tec pistons Derek mentioned, but will call all the companies i'm considering prior to dropping cash. Scott said we were shooting for 9.5-9.8:1 CR since sticking with iron heads.
questions: is there any benefit with going .038 over vs .040 or vice versa?
do i have enough information to select the right CD for a zero deck condition at TDC, which i understand is what I should be shooting for?
what CR would be ideal here? i read to stay below 10.0:1 with irons. any insight here?

unrelated, what water pump do i need? i get that this is a big car 455 that i'm shoving into an A-body. i just want to make sure i have the proper accesories and pullies to not present an issue there.

thanks for the advice gents! more to follow in the next few days! :beer

 

I dont have all of the answers for you. One I do is that most forged pistons for a Buick 455 would not be in .040 over. I think maybe federal has some heavy forged slugs at that size that would do the job. Otherwise TA has forged pistons with valve reliefs and all as well as Jim Weise with his Diamond forged pistons at .038 over bore. My opinion here is that your 284-88h cam would be fine with some forged federal moguls with no valve reliefs. Not enough lift or duration to have a piston to valve clearance issues. That is if the milling of the block and heads is minimal as planned by what you posted.

Most here would prefer the SP1 intake over the edelbrock B4B. I went with the performer, same thing as the B4B just different carb mounting location. The SP1 is single plane and better for high HP numbers. The B4B will be better for low end grunt. So you have to ask yourself will this be mainly a street car with little to no racing. If so I think the B4B would be fine. The Poston S-Divider is a dual plane if I remember right, just like the B4B. Is there something wrong with yours? If not I would look into how similar it is to a B4B if you want low end grunt more than top end HP. It maty not need to be replaced.

http://www.compcams.com/information/Articles/Type/Buick/CC_CC1001-001.asp

Here is the link that made me choose my Dual plane intake rather than a single plane. Top end power is great when racing to me. When going stop light to stop light I think the low end grunt is more fun.


The waterpump would most likely be a long arm water pump. I believe summit sells them. TA has a very nice high performance unit as well you could look into.


With your cam your builder is about right as far as compression goes. Dynamic Static Compression is what you have to determine with Iron heads to see if your wehre you need to be. Larry AKA the wizard has some extensive knowledge there, maybe he will chime in. That or your Machine shop guy may already be aware of this and factoring that into this build.


Your valves are the stock size valves for a 455. Stage one valves are 2.13 intake and 1.755 exhaust. It has been said unless your going to run a big cam or race the car, it may not be worth the extra cash for the bigger valves, as far as opening up the heads to install them. You could replace the stock valves and just do some bowl blending and clean up to make them perform better. If you wanted better flowing heads later it would be better to go with some TA aluminums when you want to invest that kind of cash. Fully ported big valve irons will nearly run you waht a set of TA aluminum heads do.

Hope I was somewhat helpful where I could be.


Good Luck Jesse.

 

The pistons that have overbores like 30, 40 ect. are Buick pistons using the original 5/64" thick 1st and second rings.
It is preferred to use the more modern 1/16" ring set except no one makes them for the Buick so you use rings from other brands.
In this case .038" over (4.350") is Mopar overbore size. The more modern ring sets also give you a wider choice of ring materials and coatings.

If you reduce the combustion chamber size it will make it more difficult to find a forged piston with enough dish volume to get a 9.8:1 static compression ratio.
With a 73 cc chamber you need a piston with 25 cc in the dish. That's based on having the piston at zero deck clearance for best quench distance to minimize detonation.
If you need more than a 25cc piston dish you are looking at the a custom piston like Autotec.

In order to get zero deck clearance with a 6.60" rod without having to mill a lot off the block deck, the piston CD needs to be close to 2.00".
Typically you finish the block and crank and install the crank rods and pistons with bearings, bring the pistons to TDC and measure the amount needed for the final block deck cut to get zero clearance.
Some shops just do the four corner pistons.

 

Good info here. I will see about the Autotec pistons today. How do I know what cc dish to order. I see that an untouched block would need a CH of 2.00 to zero deck the piston. Seems i need more info from the builder. Autotec reps may have more insight here.

 

You should wait until the heads are finished so you know exactly what the combustion chamber volume is.
Your machinist needs to measure the block deck height after he takes the first cleanup cut.
Then order the piston CH so you have another .010" to work with for the final cut on the block deck.

Autotec's Buick 455 piston comes with a 22 cc dish but you will probably need closer to 30 cc for 9.5:1 compression ratio which will cost extra.

Paul

 

Aluminum heads go a long ways. I'm now at 8.4 on mine, but haven't taken it down to low elevation yet either. Also I tend to more precisely monitor and control fuel and spark than most here. The old cam I ran for four years had me at 8.241 and it never had an issue with 91 pump gas. Both ran at 10.65:1 static compression. On the flip side, I ran 9.3:1 static compression, with '70 iron heads, with 7.68 dynamic compression and it would rattle on hot days at low elevation even with 91 octane in the tank.

 

Hit a snag with my build. So TA says they cant sell me a crankshaft because a good usable core is required. My crank needs to be welded and reground according to my builder, thus making it not acceptable for TA. I posted a parts wanted ad and got 2 replys, both of which requested an email on an outside source, which i did. No response from either member. Does anyone have any leads on a crankshaft? Im at a standstill without it. Builder says he can weld it up and grind it down but would run into issues with rod bearing sizes. Guidance?