Just an opinion. I know it's not as exciting as 12 sec. cars but I think a 100% pure stock shoot out with a original hemi car and a stage one buick would settle this never ending debate. Going by the old motortrend 50 fastest the Stage 1 and hemis were pretty much even. Even though the Stage 1 lists 3rd, on any given day with varying weather, track conditions and or driver either car could be quicker than the other. As most of the racers on this site know plenty of factors effect a cars ability to make power. Too many to list here. I think certified factory stock with no deviations from stock would eliminate all this " is this acceptable? If he's running this than I should be able to run that " kind of thing. Only thing different from original maybe slicks, being that street tires kind of limit the true 60ft. potential of these cars. Yes another condition of driver skill that affects the outcome of a race. Not car performance necessarily. Just a thought. I still have my Richard Lasseter / Roy Badie issue from June 1986 Car Review. Lets hope Hot Rod comes up with something down the middle and something both camps will be happy with. Ok I'll get off my soapbox. John Biggs
My track experience is as limited as my street experience is broad. Back when I was younger, and didn't have a professional reputation to protect, I was game for any such monkeyshines. I ran and beat 'em all with my loaded convertible set up bone stock. Back then, there were only a few hemis around, and none of them wanted a piece, especially considering Lasseter had smoked Badie. My friends even sent a letter to Car Review offering(without my knowledge) to have a Hemi convertible run my car, and there wasn't a peep. The only Mopar I could get a run from was a guy with a built- up '70 Challenger 440 6-pack, and it was a close shave. Upshot is: The Buick community's experience with magazine shootouts is a mixed bag since that seminal first round. The second race had a clear hemi ringer against a low mileage stock GS (I met one of the guys who helped ship the built hemi to be put in the car; nice guy, too.) Car Review wouldn't even print the third race. In stock form, a Stage 1 and hemi will trade wins on any given day, but like my learned colleague above has pointed out, once you break the "stock" barrier and start pouring dollars into the crankcase, all bets are off. If the Buick happened to have a better setup, there's no guarantee that the win would be reported by HR at presstime. The opposite is true with a hemi win, and the mystique just increases. I just don't see any positives. And no, I am no longer interested in finding a hemi convertible to race...my car is retired :sleep: I have really come to appreciate the smooth Rallye -Ride suspension, compared to the sky-filled windshield and bruised kidneys. Dan
I'd like to see it come off. Would hate to see a commentary printed that the Buick community has thrown in the towel or chickened out. Anyways, I think Dave already said that there are a couple of volunteers so maybe I don't need to worry about it. Speaking of sticking street tires... How about throwing an engine block in the trunk. Would the weight sticking the tires down be enough of an advantage off the line to outweigh (pun intended) the disadvantage of 150lbs added weight in the overall run? I'm old enough to remember putting studded snow tires on these cars and throwing 100lbs of salt in the trunk in the winter to get through the snow better.
Heres some musings from an old racer. In my younger years when street racing was the norm,and I participated in "unsupervised contests of acceleration"my GS was one of the quickest street cars around.Up against the street hemis even if mildly modified it was no contest,the 440-6packs were the ones to watch out for.Into the 12's and 11's our GS's can hang with the hemrod no problem,but when its bucks up and big horsepower ,especially with slicks,the hemi will kick our butts.Look at th SS/AA cars in super stock,is there a full bodied buick around that can run 8's and stay together?? heres where the new block would level the playing field some.Untill we have a reliable platform to build a lot of HP ,we can compete well in FAST or Pure stock,if all out, anything goes, we're at a diadvantage.Daves hemi will clean our clock.If hotrod wants to compare cars thru racing,use 10 cars from each camp with different levels of mods permitted in each class.this will give a more accurate assessment. gary
I agree..... But we have no clue if Hot Rod is listening. DD has gone silent. Wouldn't it be cool if we organized our own "ultimate once and for all king of the hill HEMI vs GS vs Everything else shootout" Virgin stock: 5 hemi cars 5 GS stage I cars 5 Chevy's 5 fords 10 wild cards [440's, olds, AMC, whatever...] Certified stock: same 5,5,5,5,10 Ultimate street: Same 5,5,5,5,10 Street legal, licensed, safety equipment for it's respective time installed. Fiberglass replacement parts ok, tubbed ok, run what 'ya brung, and hope 'ya brung enough!!! [some rules apply, like same block for body as factory installed, so no HEMI's in a pinto ] F.A.S.T. Same 5,5,5,5,10 Ultimate factory/dealer preped: Same 5,5,5,5,10 Stage II, 69 hemi cuda, 427 fairlane... If you could buy the car from a dealer and have the dealer bolt it on from the factory parts catalog, anything goes :TU: ... and that includes slicks, but only for this class. 150 cars total, all domestic manufacturers represented. $300 entrance fee per vehicle, 100% payout for prizes after expenses, spectator admission and vendors fees covers administrative expenses. Heads up, best 2 out of 3 eliminations, with a redemption round for red lights and mechanical problems [remember, this is a once and for all final detirmination for king of the hill title, so everyone gets not one, but two chances to show their stuff]. Points system applies... 20 mile round trip cruise. 10 miles there, stop for 2 hours for a car show, 10 miles back. Max points for trip completed, points deducted for mechanical failures, no points for trailer queens or non street legal's. Votes detirmine points for the car show. ONLY 1 vote per person, ballot's given with paid admission. Points awarded for 60 ft, 1/8 mi, 1/4 mi, E.T., MPH, and win light. Your single best run detirmines your points. End of the night, the handfull of the baddest of the baddest compete for king of the hill on single elimination. AFTER THAT re-run the baddest of the baddest on slicks. Cash prizes given for top compeditors in each class, and top points winners. Cash for baddest of the baddest, trophy's for all compeditors. Disputes [if any] settled by points. Absolute king of the hill to be detirmined at the end of the event based on total wins per manufacturer. And here's the kicker....We invite Hot Rod magazine to cover it!!!!!!!
Even though D.D. isn't posting. I'm sure he's following this thread. For me. I would want to see the LS6 Chevelle added to the running. That 450hp rating gets thrown around alot in all forms of commentary. It certainly was not top dog if rated at peak performance. Hemis vs. Stage 1 vs. LS6. Keep it simple. Each camp brings to "Virgins" :laugh: , 2 certified stock(FAST definition) and FAST competitors. Best of 3 in each class. This would be my wish list! Patrick
I`m following.. Also Jim Rodgers has stepped up and offered his Buick for the Hot Rod shoot-out. I`m just waiting to hear back from Hot Rod to make sure everything is on. With Hemmings & Hot Rod doing a shoot-out I`m just wondering if there`s gonna be any thunder left? I`m wondering how Hot Rod will respond if they know another magazine will be doing the same thing?? It`s wait and see for now. If Hot Rod doesn`t like the idea of another magazine doing the same thing and they bail? I`ll enter in any shoot out. It`s wait and see for now. Is this gonna be stock tires or slicks for the FAST cars? You can count my Road Runner, the Challenger, Joel`s new ride in for sure. I`m guessing Ralph will race also and probably Steve Hodges. FAST hemi`s will not be in short supply.
I read in the newest GSXtra that Jim Rodgers will be the Buick Guy in this shootout. Anyone else know more about this since it was originally posted ? Will Jim's GS be up to the task ?
Holy thread bump Batman! Whatever happened with this? As a lover of both marques I've always enjoyed this rivalry. Sadly, the only Mopar left in my life is my old mid-80s Dodge beaver tail tow truck. (Unless you count my AMCs!) The second owner of the 68 440 Magnum Charger R/T that I used to own used to regale me with the story of how he and his friend with a Stage 1 GS used to race each other stoplight to stoplight from Anaheim Calif. all the way down to Fountain Valley Calif. back in the day. The Charger would win one, the GS would win the next, back and forth like that all the way down to Fountain Valley! Try that today and you'll wind up racing cops instead! Regards, Eric
Just like many of the Buick gurus said, the Mopar whipped butt when this took place. Buicks are king over the Hemi when in stock or near stock form. But when you have a Hemi with tens of thousands of dollars spent on it and mega power the Buicks can't hang with it. Not a true represtation of the old matchup though IMO. Not many of us have $80k to build a Fast car. I liked the ideal in this thread of putting several cars in the matchup. Each would have had different levels of mods. We would have had some W's that way. Dave offered up to have several cars come and race but all his were other Fast Mopars. That was a joke.
As I remember, the buick used T A aluminum heads, breaking the rules. and ran really fast, in the 10s I think but Daves hemi was still much faster. Daves car now runs 9s.
The HRM story was 80% crap, setup and written by admitted ''mopar strokes''(their words not mine) They even had the bald faced audacity to imply that Dave Dudek only had the hemi car a short time and had little experience with it! It was his dads car that Dave himself had setup and had years of experience race prepping it.:rant: Dave wont admit to how big the hemi was but it was well over 500ci, which is legal in F.A.S.T...... But dont try and pass a F.A.S.T. prepped hemi racecar off as a street car and put it up against a REAL street car and call it settled.ou: For the record, I dont think Dave was in on the misrepresentation, I think it was HRMs doing. He was up front about the hemi racecar's history in other magazine stories and on here.
WHICH CAR WAS FASTEST IN 1970? That is the Question! The only true race would be one that is representative of the original cars, or at least not tweaked beyond the ringers on the 50 fastest list. That is where this all began. The problems start when we raise the bar to require 500+ cubic inches and 700+ HP which favors the: * two-4 barrel carbs that can outflow a single q-jet. * Hemi exhaust manifolds that outflow the GS/Electra/Rivera manifolds. * Nearly doubling the air flow of the original Hemi heads, which Buicks can't do. * and multitudes of mega dollar tecnological advancements which favor the Mopar (and Hot Rod Magazines 3200 lb Corvette). QUESTION: who cares who can out-TECH who, or out-SPEND who, by using 2011 tecnology 41 years ofter the fact? ANSWER: The people who have a vested intrest in the winner and are sure who that winner will be. Especially HR magazine which has HEMI on the front page of their mag every other month. (If Buick won, the news would be subdued or trashed anyway. Think about it!) This challenge has nothing to do with the purpose of the "50 fastest" list which started all this shootout stuff. Lets go back to the original 1970 technology and compare apples to apples once again (bias ply slicks should be ok, they were available in 1970).
This event really didn't represent what almost all of our cars are capable of. It did make for good reading though. Stock "looking" cars in the 10's is cool for sure. If I remember correctly the Buick was a new car that had almost no track time so that was an amazing job going out and getting in the 10's right off the trailer. Now let's have a Hemi versus Buick shootout with 2 cars almost stock. Let them use what was available back then. We might even drag out some Stage 2's.
Thanks for the info and link. After reading in this thread where several people had suggested a contest where there could and should be a second class where the rules would be closer to the "Pure Stock" class and seeing D.D.'s post were he seemed to support that idea as long as H.R. went along with it had me hoping that that had been what actually happened. That's why I posted asking what happened at this gathering. I'm super disappointed that they didn't do that second class. Isn't there a chance that the Buick and Mopar guys could still put something together on their own? Something closer to the real world? I'm sure there are plenty of other magazines and/or other media that would be all over it! Who needs Hot Rod!! Regards, Eric
