DD, YOU need to get a blessing from Hot Rod that we can use a FACTORY Stage 2 head setup, and headers FIRST. Then we'll work on Rix... I'm actually thinking Rix already has the correct cast iron intake and carb from his stash if we can't use the B4B/Holley setup, and the whole thing can go in Carlini's car, Gessler's, or mine. We also need a cam vacuum rule for this... on both sides. JH then again, Rix can re-debut the red GS car... hmmm, wonder if Benisek/Kent/Colteryahn is interested in this, they have good artillery as well... shootout needs to happen at Norwalk, Cecil County, or ATCO
I think the aluminum intake and the Holley may be way over the top? Let me check with Hot Rod. I was thinking more in line of the correct GS Stage1 intake, carb, heads, block,ect. with the addition of headers. I`m gonna send Hot Rod a link here and let`s see what they think?
Then all you you need is Rix's '71 car, with a toned down cam, and full exhaust. :grin: p I don't think he'd turn down this deal... JH
This race would not even resemble the legendary one. This one is all about green dead presidents. From how many go into the cars to how many Hot Rod makes pushing their mags. I say run them like they did many many years back and see what happens. DD's attempt at psychology on our friendly board is hilarious. I guess next will be seeing how far one will peeeeeeeeee.
i'm wondering why they didnt choose to do a pure stock type format.. i feel that would have been more in line with the spirit of the original debate. obviously in modified form the hemi has a huge advantage over the 455. take a well tuned stock stage 1 vs a well tuned stock Hemi and run a best of 3 type deal..just my opinion
I think it should be like Max Bore .038over on both engine's no Stroker Motors Stock looking Parts. The Motors should be pumped for Inches. I don't think they shouldn't be any bigger that 8 more inches over stock. When Richard L ran in the first shoot out. I am shure he had Ed's header's a B4B and a Holley Carb. The F.A.S.T class is all about Money. Those big Stroke Motors they might as well be Race Car's. I think people would like to see more Street Car Related Car like low 12s to 11.49 Car's with no RollBar's. When i got my GS when i was 15 i liked reading about Rob C driving his car to Races with he's 72 Stage 1 and running low 11s Greg Gessler did it as well as many other's back in the day.Whenthey use to call the class GS Junior Stock. The FAST class are Big Stroke Motors right at 500 inches with big Roller Cams.I would like to see them drive into the track change tires add gas weigh both Cars pump them for inches. Have two evenly matched Car's make it a driver's race. Muscle Car fan's like to read about close racing.
....just tell HotRod that our Buicks run like their tied to trees and be done with it. Greg's 4 year dynasty certainly proved our cars (and MOTORS) dont belong on any track a fabled HEMI might lurk around. I mean, How could a motor designed with parts to power GrandPaw's Electra 225 possibly compete with a Full Race inspired Mopar ?? :rant: ou:
Easy, put it in a race with cars on weenie bias ply tires so that adding more HP only helps a tiny bit. I think we've seen just about every format available for these cars to run. "Pure Stock" Stock Appearing, FAST, Super Stock, blah-blah-blah. It's going to take more than a stage 1 to make this race a match-up. This proposed format takes advantage of all of the Hemi's strong points, and all of (mainly head flow, valvetrain, exhaust) and eliminates the Buick's advantages(CID, low-end torque) at these horsepower levels. I'm not sure why factory numbered dealer-parts would not be reasonable for this car considering the mis-match to begin with.
GRM $2003 A Buick :3gears: :laugh: That is very cool. Would love to hear about it! I grew up with SCCA,etc. Was thinking what I could do to throw a buick sideways at an Xcross. I would love to see those guy's faces with a big honker smokin' em sideways. Then take it on the 1/4 and smoke em too :moonu: :Smarty: ou: :3gears: :3gears: :3gears:
Buick all ready beat the hemi 20yrs ago ! Looking through 1984/1985 issues of Muscle Car Review, Richard Lassiter's '70 GS repeatedly beat out Roy Badie's Hemi Coronet R/T in a shootout that got the MOPAR crowd in a BIG uproar! These were supposedly stock cars. It must be time to remind the Hemi crowd again !!!
Remember too,guys,the Stage 1 was designed to run on the street as well as the strip. For what it has,it is a remarkable engine and one that continues the legacy. I think for those of us that own these cars,know the Buick engineers(Dennis Manner) did their homework. What is most unfortunate is the fact that a Stage II package wasn't released. In my honest opinion,if Buick had come out with the Stage II GS/GSX,they would've been an absolute BEAST. Plus,to hear the sound a Stage II makes is very impressive. I really hope that this event will come togther,because these shootouts are fun and generate an enormous amount of interest.
ou: Here`s the deal: Were looking for a Shoot-Out between two stock appearing cars on slicks. A Buick and Hemi that`s what was offered up. We tried to do this privately and brought it here as a last resort. For the guy who thinks this is part of some physiological war fair. Read the last sentence again. If you guy`s have something maybe we will have some fun, this is NOT life or death. Just something cool to be involved with for god sake. If nobody steps up fine, we tried. Here`s a news flash.. Money plays a role in any "heads-up" class. From tractor pulls, remote control car racing, showing horses, racing cars, ect,ect. Why is this brought up? are guy`s still just figuring this out? I`ve said this a million times, I turn wrenches for a living, wife don`t work, two baby boy`s at home and I`ve been laid off for the last two months for gods sake. I`M GONNA HAVE TO HIT MY DAMN CREDIT CARD TO GET MY STAINLESS STEEL TRIM WORK BACK SO I CAN PUT THE CAR BACK TOGEATHER. If this is *ALL* about money the smart money is not with me.. Jim sounds like he`s the only one who may know somebody that`s instrested. Let`s run this lead out and if this doesn`t happen I`ll delete this post. No big deal, really....
Look how easy people get upset over this? Exactly the reason Hot Rod wants to do it.... Smart people over there, for sure! :TU:
Dave, I'm sure there will be a few people that are interested in this shootout. I wouldn't lose hope. It's nobody's fault that it's all about the money. Everywhere you look comes down to money,and our hobby is no exception.
Dave, I sure hope this race event becomes a reality. Whatever happened to National Hot Rod Assosiation (NHRA) General Specifications? Joe X.
I`d be OK with headers on a FAST Buick, but if a shoot-out were to go down with all those other parts added? People reading would probably be thinking "why does the HEMI have to look stock and the Buick has race car parts on it" I don`t think that will go over well. Win or lose it may not look right.. Even though I`m OK with headers everybody reading would be asking WHY? why? why does Hot Rod want to run a race under F.A.S.T. rules while throwing out half the title (Stock Tires) of the class? what the h@ll? you'd have to talk to whoever shows up, i would think that if you'll let them have a Stg2 they'll let you have headers as well. it's not possible to bolt an exhaust manifold to a Stage 2 head. Buick chopped the exhaust port side and eliminated the dog leg in the port. if you accept a factory cast iron Stage 2 head you are, by definition, allowing headers. I was thinking more in line of the correct GS Stage1 intake easy enough, the stock Stage 1 intake is the same intake that came on all factory 455's. kind of embarassing for those dual carb Dodge's to ever lose to them, innit? :laugh: It may be time to move on from this Buick vs Hemi. Really kind of a sad day [shrugs] we start getting new block castings that we can bore and stroke to 550+ cubes and the 'unlimited' war will be on. you know perfectly well that Buick doesn't have anything approaching the aftermarket (or ever had the factory support) that Dodge has. that we can even pretend to be competitive with you should be a huge embarassment to the Dodge crowd. that we can win.... :spank: looking through the official F.A.S.T. rules, i don't see how you can put headers through. they specifically repeat several times that manifolds are required and headers are forbidden. maybe if you went to the F/S rules you'd get some takers.
I'll agree with that, but maybe not for the same reasons as you. The HEMI was designed as a max effort nascar racing engine. The 455 was designed to move 'Granny's 3 ton luxo-barge around town. When you talk about their particular applications in factory hot rods, the hemi was actually de-tuned for the street, the 455 was beefed up for GS trim. Back in 1970, you could walk into a mopar or buick dealership, and buy either a 455 stage 1, or a hemi powered Road-runner, and either of these cars were stellar performers in their own right. Add a cam, headers, gears, etc. [the standard mods of the 1970 era] and they both instantly jumped to supercar status... The past 40 years has left us with the legacy of "Hemi vs GS" based on that criteria. Now, were being asked to compete in a challenge where the Hemi can be brought up to it's "nascar" performance levels, and the buick is restricted to the same exhaust manifolds that 'Granny used to go get the groceries. If you want to compare apples to apples, then here's my take on it: The HEMI was infact a specialty engine... No different than the Stage II. The only difference is that the Hemi was available with it's "special" heads, cast iron headers, 2x4v intake, fancy DANA rear end, etc. right off the showroom floor, where as if you wanted the same parts for your P/W, P/S, A/C equiped GS, you needed to get them dealer installed thru the parts counter.......... For heavens sake, the Buick came with a stinkin 10 bolt rear-end!!!!!!!! If you have any doubt as to the validity of my arguement, then answer this... How many 4 door New-Yorkers with A/C, P/W, P/S etc. did Mopar install the Hemi into????? Because I can show you a lot of Electra's and LeSabres that have the same 455 as our GS's. When Buick dropped the 455 into the A-body and created the GS, they got lucky in the fact that they created the baddest street car this side of the legendary hemi. [or bettered the hemi depending on your view-point] F.A.S.T. is an ultra cool class, and I have nothing but respect for the guys who run it... But when it comes right down to it, it really is a class created for the hemi.... Bring the engine internals up to a level that takes maximum advantage of the factory installed externals... 2X4V, cast iron headers, special heads, etc. These restrictions actually play against the buick's weak points, and IMHO, running this legendary challenge in FAST really has nothing to do with the street car debate that created the rivalry in the first place. Give us our B4B to match your 2X4V Give us our Stage II heads to match your HEMI's Give us our dealer installed headers to match your NASCAR designed cast iron headers Only then will it be a fair comparison in the horsepower and performance level that FAST brings to the table.[rant mode off] p
Hemi Vs. Buick.... I really don't care which is faster... they're both bad cars. But, it's not a real test since the FAST format allows for modifications. The only grudge match I really care about between the Hemi's and Stage 1's is in completly STOCK form(except for the tires.. 36yr old rubber just isn't safe)... just like off of the show room floor. Once you start modding, then you get into WHO is better... not WHAT is better. Didn't the Stock vs. Stock thing get run through on another post, John Chamberlain and some other??? That's a race I'd like to see. Not trying to Rip on the FAST guys, those cars are amazing.. I just don't think it's a realistic view of the whole since the mechanical talent comes into play.
