Very well said Kerry. The money Edelbrock makes on these heads will not come back to the buick community.TA ON THE OTHER HAND WILL REINVEST THE MONEY TO PROVIDE US WITH A BETTER PRODUCT.So far TA is the only company to bring us the parts we need in a timely fashion.
TA heads can be had for semi-cheap. I got bare stage 1 castings (I think it was $1450). I got some new stage 1 valves from a BPG member for $100 or $150 (can't remember). Then I gave them to a head shop here in CA with $500. I asked him to do what he can with that much dough. He did a bunch of work in the pockets, a little in the chambers, and a valve job. I was running a TA 212, so my stock valvesprings worked fine. At that time, it was my daily transportation. Stock 72 heads to the Al heads was like a whole different motor.
Very true. I always try to shop at small, quailty businesses. In any business it always comes down to what the seller/service provider cares about most, is it selling high quailty products/services and making people happy in the long run or is stocking and selling only the "fast moving" products irrespective of quality to increase the profit margin? Anyway, to be honest who here would really put an Edelbrock part on their car, except maybe for their intakes, re-labeled carbs and fuel pumps it's mostly junk, or did I miss something? o No: There is always, in my experience, a better product out there - sometimes for a little more but other times the same or less $. I'm sure our Buick heads will be no different. P.S. I didn't mean to offend anyone! Steve
I'll chime in here. The first thing I noticed was that people were saying the Edelbrock head will hopefully suit moderate buildups, that don't require a better head like the TA. Then the next thing they say is that the TA Roller rockers are too expensive. Well, if you are building a 500 hp or less combination, many times the stock rockers are fine. For guys going 500-750+ hp you are going to need max air flow and a high end rocker wether it be TA or Chevy type. So, unless you get the Edelbrocks to flow over 350 CFM by .500" lift, you will never have a combination that will really need a cheap roller rocker on a cheap head. The good thing about the Buick is the higher grade parts that they already have. All day long I field phone calls where people are used to Chevy engines and think they have to upgrade everything. Often I have people ask for a forged crank, my first response is how much HP are you going to put to it, 99% reply 500 hp. Well, my friend today is your lucky day, your factory crank is good to 700 hp. I also have people almost once a day, inquire about stroker kits and again my first question is how much HP do you want? They always say 500 to 600, again it's your lucky day because it's not necessary. So for most street/strip combinations, roller rockers are not even necessary. One of the greatest things in the Buick community of the last few years has been the OUTSTANDING POSITIVE press and word of mouth. It is all contributed to how well these engines are performing. Most of the press is because how well they run with a good cylinder head. You start seeing a mediocre head flood the market and we will be back where we were when a factory Stage 1 or a `67 big port head was the s#@t. Wether you like TA or not, every Buick person was proud when the Buick beat all the other Big Blocks in the Car Craft shoot out. Though the Buick was more $ it wasn't that big of a difference when you are talking 1000 Chevy big blocks to 1 Buick for production numbers. So who is really getting price gouged? The people you are envious of... the Chevy guys and buy whom are they getting gouged by the big companies that ignored the Buicks for DECADES. What generates lower prices and sale prices is... VOLUME, not competition. Mike T. looks around the shop and sees a pallet of castings that just got machined and says to me, put those on the BPG sale this month. Sure there may be some impact of a less expensive head on the market. But not like you think. Here are some reasons that the TA head is the price that it is. First the machine work is second to none, the attention to detail and fit and finish are supperior to OEM. The valve jobs are to NASCAR standards. The valves are SPECIALLY made, one key feature that even some of the best names don't and can't offer on their valves is tapered exhaust stems, which allows more clearance towards the head of the valve to compensate for heat expansion of the valve. (there are many more features, but I don't know them off the top of my head). The springs are set up for the type of cam that you will be using and how you will be using them. Sounds like the Edelbrocks will be generic set ups. Also all of the tip heights are the same for acurate valve train set up. Many of you are assuming that because TA is a small place that they lack the resources, manufacturing capabilities and quality of the bigger named companies. Well, that is far from the truth. In almost every instance a TA produced product is supperior to a big name product. And most often the pieces that TA contracts to be made by an outside vendor are of superior quality, fit and function than that of the standard product offered by that Vendor. For instance our Roller Rockers are a proprietary design that incorporate key additional features than the rockers that you can buy direct from our Vendor. Another example is much of the hardware that is made for TA by ARP is proprietary and what you will get from TA is more refined than the same component in ARP's catalog. TA utilizes some of the best vendors in the industry as well as consulting with people involved in Prostock and Top Fuel Racing along with famous engine builders our dealers and prior GM engineers when developing new products, this TEAM of consultants is far superior than any in house team that can be comprised. Plus we have our in house team, to further strenghten our capabilities. I will mention this also: for those of you who insist on contacting another vendor to make a product AFTER TA or someone else has already stepped up successfully, shame on you for stalling progress by flooding the market with redundant parts. I know Mike is constantly going to the trade shows and talking to vendors and manufacturers every day. Usually, after YEARS of persistance he gets them to make something. For instance, FELPRO REFUSED to do a performance composite head gasket for the Buick, when it would be so easy for them to do so. When Detroit stepped up and the Orange Crush was born, some of our Buick brethern contacted Felpro and used TA's success with the Orange Crush to convince them to make a gasket and so they did. Oh yeah, and what did FELPRO do to pay everyone back? When they sold to Federal Mogul, they didn't disclose their asbestos problem causing Federal Mogul to incur about $1 million a day in clean up and fines. Which led to all of those price hikes 2 years ago and the dicontinuation of parts as well as the closing of the smaller entities of Federal Mogul... and eventually their re-organization. Then you have the B4B resurection... lets move forward people, not backward. You wasted everyone's time and energy on that one. With regards to the Edelbrock heads, they will take some revenue from TA but if they impact the Bulldog heads so early since their release that will negate any re-investment of those funds towards the cylinder block and probably disgust that whole camp. As a disclaimer, anyone is free to develop what ever part they would like, but why redundant parts? Somebody make a crankshaft already! I used to say someone should make a dipstick and tube as well as an oil pan and NO ONE else would do it. So now we have (oil pans are waiting for final testing). But, anyother Buick vendor could have done those just as easy, but for some reason they like to fragment the available revenue. In closing, TA would love for everyone of you to buy all of your parts from us, because honestly, we could make a world of new parts from the additional revenue. TA WOULD re-invest it. Mike's purpose on this earth is to make Buick parts. But, like so many of you are afraid of putting all of your eggs in one basket, that can be understood. But don't put your eggs in a stranger's basket, because they might just get broke. Hope you all missed me while I was gone, Dave
dave, i've been around since the jim bell days when parts were scarce and knowledge was learned from the writings on the bathroom wall. enough said about that. i see the problem as a lack of communication from all sides. people talk, but they are talking in the wrong direction. they need to talk directly to the suppliers, i.e., email, phone, snail mail, face/face. and what i've seen for the (all)websites out there, there is little room for communication and if there is some, it doesn't hit the street where you need the info. what we probably need is a 'wish list' and have somebody take the 15 minutes or so to compute the $$/qty value to see if it is a viable project. but if it doesn't meet market needs at the current time frame, you still have planted a seed for the future. communication from one end to the other sometimes takes a long time. now about my email i sent to t/a..............lol john
Dave, I did miss you bud!!!! Nice to see your back!!! Rocker Arms, Again.... I talk with a great deal of Buick guys from stock build ups to 800 hp build ups. Its the stock to 550 hp guys that are looking for a better rocker arm than stock for a lesser price than $700. Most... not all but most 550 hp engines have had some sort of block milling or head milling done. Or maybe the base circle of the cam has changed when going to a higher lift camshaft with requires a different push rod lenght. The stock rocker arms have NO adjustment and adjustable push rods suck. :rant: So it would be nice to have a middle of the road rocker arm that dont have hardened shafts but do have a nicely finished shaft that could use a bronze bushing? And these rockers would be priced around $400??????? This is just my wish list guys so dont ridicule me for wishing. I am not in business so I dont understand the whole inventory thing and how it effects a companies bottom line. But I do pay attention to what my fellow Buick enthusiast have to say. I also understand things like water pumps and timing covers are of more importance to the WHOLE Buick community. So GSJohnny, a lower cost rocker arm is first on my Buick wish list!! Later
Well, it looks like they made a stock type head. We didn't need that! It looks like our cars will continue to receive TA heads. Even for a couple hundred dollars more its worth it. We have several heads now, TA SE and TE stage1, 2 and 3s. Bulldog has a head which flow fairly well. Bulldog has stepped up to make a block. TA makes everything else. Both of my motors are full of TA parts including heads. Edelbrock should have made a RPM airgap manifold. That would sell like hotcakes. I still think far more aluminum heads will be purchased then ported irons. The market is changing. So, everyone get off the fence and spring for a nice set of TA heads for christmas. Buicks are seen as a viable alternative big block. Thanks to TA and others.
If they did build the heads I bet they would flow nicly as some other Aftermarket heads mopar,olds,pontiac etc which they produce ...should add about 50hp over stock heads. I personally welcome the competition. If it will drive the prices down than thats great...$3200 for the current set of heads/ rockers is CrAzY :rant: You can build a complete small block chevy for the price of a buick head set up that will blow the Buick 455 away! TA will get better and probably cheaper ..FAST. Competition is good!!
I mind as well jump in after reading all 3 pages. John Zerucha, Jim Weise and Kerry, you guys hit the nail on the head so it's no sense repeating their posts. My 2 cents is mostly from trial and error learning the hard way first sometimes because of cost. 1. If it looks real good and cheap. That is exactly the quality you get...cheap. It will cost more doing the job twice than once doing it right. 2. Edelbrock may be cheaper, but to most of us racers that DO NOT do their own porting, just how much more will it cost in porting getting the heads to work. 3. Sometimes or I should say most times (with Buick powered performance) you have to go with what others that have been there have done. Go to the Buick meets and watch the cars run, and talk to the owners. Remember Buick racers love to talk about their performance and for the most part Buick racers will help new guys out telling of working combos. You newbees should learn from our mistakes, it will save you time, money and grief in the long run. 4. Very important here. Most of us guys racing the high-dollar HP cars are up there in the over 35 club (well some much older :laugh: ) When I was in my 20's still going to college, my GS was a basic stock engine with mild cam STOCK ROCKERS, mild porting on heads and a nitrous kit. Low budget as I had very little cash. But I made do, had some great times with my GS. As we get older (God willing) we also get better established with more cash flow for our toys. And now I miss the days of having a very streetable GS with all the fun and low maintenance that goes with it. What I am saying is to you young guys, be patient and listen and learn first, set realistic goals, ask questions and LISTEN to the answers, and do the job right the first time. Now heads, (pre-Bulldog days) well seeing what was out there and what worked I went with TA parts. No, I don't get discounts and no I don't sell TA parts. But I got tired of wasting hard earned cash doing it twice. My TA Stage 1 TE heads did have some extensive port work done by Tri-Shield. But with big jobs it usually takes time so I took advantage of the time setting aside the cash as the project moved along. In the end yeah the total work was costly, like it was said in a previous post, it's all forgotten now as I am running low 9's, consistantly and with no breakage. Bottom line: Set goals, do your research, see the cars run, and ask questions, most of all, be realistic with yourself and yor goals. A quote from Clint Eastwood: "A man's got to know his limitation" . How true how true.
I have read all posts in this thread and I can't beleive the a$$kissing in here to TA.So what if Edelbrock makes new heads,if you don't like it don't buy them, stop the belly aching. First before anybody gets bent out of shape I have a TA performance aluminum motor with TA heads built for my GN.I paid a good amount of money for them and they are top notch....if you want to spend the $$ and have the time to wait. I for one do not like having a motor ready for heads and hearing another 2 weeks and they'll be ready for several months.But then again if you want TA parts,sometimes you have to wait. Face it guys NOT EVERYONE wants to spend $1000 refreshing stock stage 1 heads,nor are they building 500hp motors.Also take in mind the fact that aluminum heads are easily repaired for cracks and a cracked iron stage 1 head can be expensive to replace. Some of the fastest ford and chevy boys around here are using edelbrock heads,they are the victor jr versions,but that doesnt mean edelbrock can't/won't build a higher performance version for the buick later. I look at it this way Edelbrock didn't get their name or their company from building crappy parts,and you all know it.There hasn't been a 455 built with Edelbrock heads yet and you all just "know" how they'll perform?Geez between the turbo guys being cheapskates and ya'lls attacking vendors because of TA's "loyalty" LOL,I don't know who's worse. If you think TA isn't in this to make money first,you need to come back to reality. Some of you have said "well they should have made a 350 head or a performer rpm air gap manifold" Where's TA with these 350 heads? Do you not think that this may be just a start for us from edelbrock? Maybe after making a set of heads they might go for the 350 and make an air gap or single plane,or even...dare I say it,350 heads? Honestly,if my name were Edelbrock and i saw this,I wouldn't make another damn thing for you guys!You all sound like spoiled brats who are getting kickbacks from TA.
What gives you that idea? I personally know of a very unhappy Pontiac racer that lost 1.5 tenths when swapping from a set of home-ported RA III heads to Edelbrocks. I've heard the same grumblings about the Olds heads. Maybe Dave H or Casey will chime in here about the word on them. I think that those who do their homework will buy the TA heads for a little more money. Those that don't will have edelbrock heads, intake, and AFB carb, then complain about Buicks running like you-know-what.
There is a Finite number of BBB aluminum heads that will be purchased over the next, say, 5 years. While this # is Finite, it is yet undetermined and still flexible. As an example consider: if the Edel. heads were $1000 complete both heads, and proven to be alittle better performance than Iron S1's...people might buy these instead of rebuilding their Iron's when the time comes. Total BB unit sales is not a big number compared to Ford or LSx heads to be sold over the same 5 years. There are 2 vendors already sourcing the needs of this segment for us. To significantly subtract from either of these 2 vendors small sales numbers two things would be needed - significantly lower cost, significantly superior product or any combination of the two. For an ROI (Return On Investment) to be significant here, we are talking hundreds of sets of heads that need to be sold. With the price-point of the Edel. heads stated, I dont think there is enough savings advantage to go for an "unknown". Certainly they will not be a significantly superior product, so it marginally fails on both points No one is currently sourcing ANY kind of performance-oriented head for the 350. Perhaps this segment of the market is presumed even MUCH less significant than the 455 Buick but as a business decision, I would go after the untapped market with hopes of opening a completely new revenue stream as opposed to being the 3rd man in on an already-proven anemic source - this is NOT some feeding frenzy here with 200,000 unit sales predicted......
Thanks for the heads up. Until your post I doubt it would have occurred to any of us that we had to be "ass kissers" or be taking "kick backs" in order to contend in good faith that TA made parts have been important to the Buick community in the past and that TA's continuing financial success will be important to Buick Community in the future.
thats what I think. I can't believe we're finaly getting some attention from the big companys and everybodys crying and giving TA a hicky were the sun don't shine. I can't understand it at all, this is probably the best thing to happen to Buick in years, and everyone is crying for mike. Well, honestly, his prices suck for the small time guy, and Poston is a whole nother story, more offers from companys will make it more affordable-which contrary to popular belief doesn't make it garbage.... o No:
No one is crying for TA.. Simply pointing out the facts of life in the Buick Aftermarket parts industry. You can chose to take it from those who know.. Or chose to beleive that some big company has magically decided to start a whole new development program for an engine that has been out of production for nearly 30 years now, that they have been more or less ignoring for all those years. That choice is up to you, but I would be pretty careful with the insunuations that there is any motive behind this, beyond our concern for the one vendor that has stepped up for us, time and time again. I will agree that no one can say that this new head will be a bust, as they are not on the market yet, but initial reports don't look favorable. JW
I can believe that Edelbrock will/has developed a program for the 455. Why? This board. up until this board came about us Buick folk were not united. Buick guys are scarce, rarely seen at shows. What are the chances that some nitwit at Edelbrock stumbled upon this site and realized that there were infact 10,000 members, (and Growing!!) all of which wanting parts. Hence a market. Thus lighting the fire under there butts. Thats what I believe. Is it too far out of reality? JW, I'm shocked that you of all people would be so negative about this. You basically told us to forget them, and only shop TA. This is a hobby for me, I could live without heads form Edelbrock, hell even TA. But this is what puts the gas in your tank, the shirt on your back. These heads will give the BBB exposure nobody ever dreamed of, which can only mean good things for your business. AS far as the heads being bust, WE should wait and see some flow charts, some dyno testing, and real world drag testing. Then I'll make my decisions. I'm going to make my decision based on a few "initial reports" of some griping "chevy rockers suck" guys. Maybe I'm wrong, Maybe, hopefully I'm not. No Offense intended to anyone.
I guess this is out of the question: how bout Mike working WITH Edelbrock on some 350 alum heads and a Performer RPM air gap? Or is Edelbrock too big to acknowledge Mike as an expert in this area? Rather than competing when there are limited buyers, work together and everyone benefits.
The question seems to be: Where are the Edelbrock heads (performance-wise) between iron heads and the currently available alum heads? We won't know until somebody actually gets them in their hands, so there's no point in getting worked up over anything and turning this discussion into a "Who loves ya, baby?" argument. The only thing we know right now is that Edelbrock has priced them just under TA's heads, right? And that's where they lost me, no matter how good/bad/ugly their heads may be. And that's nothing against Edelbrock or TA, that's just the reality of my budget... I see a large money AND performance gap in the market offerings between iron and alum heads, and it doesn't look like anybody is going to fill that gap - heck, it may not even be possible! o No: I thought Edelbrock was going to fill that gap with a decent (but not great) alum head priced significantly lower than TA or Bulldog, but it looks like they're going to introduce a decent (but not great) head priced just under TA, which makes no sense to me. Personally, I'd LOVE some "entry-level" STREET aluminum heads - something comparable to good iron heads, and priced around $1000-1300 complete. I thought Edelbrock was doing that, but then I found out that I actually need TWO heads on my 455. ou: :rant: :spank: (While I'm dreaming, I'd also like some decent (and inexpensive) closed-chamber 350 heads...but then I keep waking up. )
