I don't see the Edelbrock heads as hurting TA that much...I see them as a great alternative to worked iron heads for guys like me who don't have the budget to get the TA heads, and really don't *need* that level of performance. Of course, if I ever want some really great heads, I'll know where to look. So I don't see TA losing sales - at least, they didn't lose a sale to me because I wasn't going to buy TA heads to begin with - I don't need that level of performance and don't have the budget. I suspect I'm not alone. Here I am, I'm not a racer but I want a *good* street head, and my wife would *kill* me if I spent more on the whole 455 than around $3-5K, because I could get a whole new (good old) Buick for that much money. So dropping $2000+ on the heads won't leave much room for the rest of the engine - what to do? Well, right now I've got basically 3 choices: 1. Iron Head Performance: 3-angle valvejob, seats, guides, valves and springs, etc - $500-1100 2. Iron Head High Performance: Above plus porting - DIY porting for around $1000, or pay somebody else $1000 plus ??? depending on how much porting (time) is done. 3. Aluminum Head: The (excellent) TA entry-level bare castings are $1400, and it goes up from there. Note the large performance and $$ gap between #2 and #3. I'm currently going with option #2 and the DIY porting (which is taking bloody FOREVER because life keeps interrupting, but that's a whole 'nother issue). Figure I'll have about $1100 in them, not counting my time, and will have maximized my bang-for-the-buck as far as my bucks for heads go. Along comes Edelbrock. I can spend $900 on al heads that are (hopefully) better than worked iron heads, do a little DIY porting, and I'll have spent less and gotten more performance than Option #2 for even more bang-for-my-buck. Not as much bang as the TA heads, but not as many bucks either. Like I said, I see the Edelbrock's as a direct replacement for worked iron heads, and TA as a step or two up from them.
$900 each? To heck with that! :error: ou: Disregard my above long-windedness. ou: :spank: Back to my worked iron heads...
Gee, add the price of those cheap chevy roller rockers and you could just about have bought TA heads with TA shaft-type rockers. Putting down the Edelbrock heads is based on the hearsay results that the Pontiac, Ford, and Olds guys have had out of the box. I was told the Ford Edelbrocks provide plenty of meat for heavy porting, but so what if budget was the issue. I'm still willing to be open-minded about them being better than the above mentioned examples.
Edelbrock vs Bulldog And Bulldogs are $1850 USD a pair assembled for the street dog version. Now if they could only deliver. But I'll wait. Tom
They are about the same as any other supplier price wise, but maybe they will actually have them. I haven't seen any yet, but am hoping they are something that can be ported to get some good flow numbers from.
Bulldogs need alot of cleanup work. I spent days doing mild port work and cleanup. They are not as pretty as shown the pictures on the Bulldog site, of course. The ywill also need to be surfaced, what a butcher job that was out of the box.
"I think the Chevy rockers is genius. Lets face it, Shaft mount rockers suck. Why would anybody be upset about this?" Why do people assume that Chevy parts are better??? Chevy's have valve guide issues mainly to to the sloppy rocker arm design. Shaft mount is better/more stable. That's what the Chevy guys graduate to from their stud style.
Thanks for letting us know. Now I know what to expect. I ordered their track dog version, but they cost more $. Maybe these are prepared better. I'll let you guys know when I get them. I know Edelbrocks quality is good
Don't let me steer anyone away from Bulldogs. I do like them overall, they just weren't what I expected for "out of the box". They do make great power, first time out with no traction it went 10.50s.
Where are you getting the term "dog track version", I have never heard this? If you are going to run roller rockers you have to clearance the pushrod side, since the moved the pedestals. TA heads you have to clearance the spring side.
Well, how about a set of full roller adjustable rockers for about 130 bucks... with every ratio from 1.5-1.7. not $695. As far as stability issues, probably not an issue unless some high rpms are in order. A good set of guide plates will fix any issues for a high juice street/strip motor.
While at times TA has been out of stock, not so these days. I was in Phoenix two weeks ago, got the chance to stop by TA, and saw the pallets of head castings just sitting there, ready for you to buy. Virtually the same price for the bare castings as these new Edelbrock heads, and if history is any guide, it's unlikely that the new head here will be anything better than an aluminum version of the irons. TA STG 1 SE heads have completely revised exhaust tracts, which is the biggest problem with the iron heads. "Complete heads" from Edelbrock for that price will undoubtedly be full of inexpensive parts, so you will get what you pay for. With the special Mike ran for a club here last year, you could have bought top quality heads that are much better than irons, full of quality parts, that actually look like Buick heads, for $1895.. So why this new head is even news, or why someone would push Edelbrock to make them, defies all logic. They should have made something we don't have, like 350 heads. Or a Performer RPM intake manifold. What really is of a concern here for us Buick fans, is that now we have a big company that just wants to throw us a bone, suck up a bunch of the available pool of money that all of us are putting in the hobby.. to just let that vanish into the huge conglomerate that Edelbrock is.. Do you really think they are going to step up an make us more parts like a nitch manufacturer like TA will? Will we get any re-investment into Buick parts? Most of you don't know this, but Fed Mog has gone out of production on the short water pump for the 455.. pretty soon here, all you will be able to get is a reman. The other thing I saw out at TA was a whole pallet box full of the brand new 455 water pump castings.. which are an improved design over the originals, yet will bolt right up with everything your running now. That's re-investment into the hobby, on a simple, but critical part. So what part is Edelbrock going to remake for us, that is out of production? Where are they going to re-invest our money? I take this chevy rocker deal as a slap in the face.. except for the very few high HP motors with roller cams out there, there is no need to redesign our rocker system. While this rocker will allow more valvespring choice, the simple fact is that 98% of the motors that I build do just fine with performance versions of the stock valvetrain. And Chevy heads since the beginning of time suffer from a number of maladies related to the stud type rocker. Valve guide wear, rpm instability, stud breakage and pullout, rocker walk. you name it. Hardcore Bowtie motors go to shaft mounted rockers Because they are better. Edelbrock can keep their chevy rocker heads as far as I am concerned.. because this will not be the head for serious motors with roller cams, and that is the only application where a different rocker setup would be any kind of advantage. I refuse to be assimilated into the Chevy world.. I refuse to have them "redesign" our heads to what some bowtie freak thinks is a better configuration. That rocker redesign is about price, make no mistake about it.. now they can use cheap valves, springs, retainers and locks, and sell you their rockers. And then sell you this conglomeration for just "a little less" than you often can by quality heads, full of quality parts, when they are on sale. And the normal price is not out of line with other small market offerings, considering the quality and performance of the product. Edelbrock had to figure out how to build these heads, reduce the overall cost of manufacture, and then offer them to the masses, with the main sales point being price. That's how you market to the sheep among us.. Be smarter than the average American consumer here guys.. Don't be fooled by anyone telling you the redesign was in your best interest. Who knows, maybe this head will be killer, but that's very unlikely. So it may, at the end of the day, actually hurt the hobby as a whole. Think big picture here folks. Edelbrock is a big company, and their product quality is driven by bean counters. I see about a 4 or 5 Performers manifolds a year that I have to actually weld up the corners of the ports, as they end up below the head port.. it's a casting flaw. I had one Performer manifold that had casting slag that completely plugged the water passage from the LH head. We caught it right away on the dyno, as it is my habit to use my infrared temp gun to watch the heads heat up, when a brand new build is first fired up. When one head reached 200 degrees, while the other was at 120, we stopped the motor to investigate. Sure enough, way down in the coolant passage, was a big chunk of casting flashing, which complete blocked the water flow from the LH head. I can only imagine the disastrous results which would have occurred if just the average "Joe Buick" would have bolted that manifold on his pride and joy.. kiss that motor goodbye. Look over the horizon folks.. most of you are right around my age.. is it a good thing for us to spread the money out, so no company can afford the investment it takes to keep making parts for us, as well as the dollars it takes to keep the stuff in stock? Is it a good thing for performance to stagnate, parts to become hard to get, and to have to rely on Big corporations, or independent "Jack of all makes" companies? Someone needs to explain to me how this is a good thing.. I know of only one company that I can call, buy a Moldex crank for a Buick stroker motor, (they had it on the shelf) and deal with knowledgeable folks who know Buicks, and can steer you in the right direction for your build. It takes a lot of $$$ to keep this stuff sitting on the shelf, and the more we pull those dollars out of that company and it gets harder for a small family business to be able to buy 20 sets of SRP pistons to sit on the shelf for months, and be available when you want to buy a set. Only one company that stocks rockers, cams, timing covers of their own design, roller cam blanks, roller lifters, the correct solid lifter, the best standard hydraulic lifters, special gaskets, and the list goes on and on.. but you get the point. That company is TA Performance. I will support their efforts, come Hell or high water. I built motors with Buick Factory Iron heads, or TA Aluminum heads. Period While some of you may read this and think that is a bad business decision for an independent Buick-only company like mine, I look deeper at the situation, and toward the future, not just today, and how can I shave a couple bucks off for myself. In a few days I will turn 39 years old, and wish to still be building Buicks when I am 59.. so it's in my best interest to keep our primary vendor strong. And the products that come out of this shop, TA equipped, are the best they can be. In my position, in a industry where things go bad a lot easier than they go well, using cheap parts is penny wise, and pound foolish. All you have to do is build enough product to understand that. Building a couple of motors a year won't teach you the value of good products to work with.. building 20 a year will. I didn't mean this post to go negative, although after reading it, I see it did.. and I apologize for my direct tone here. But it's purpose is grab you guys by the shoulders, and shake you a bit. Look long term, identify who in the past has re-invested the money into the hobby, and "dance with the one that brung 'ya". I don't mean to bash anyone who wants and will buy these new heads, or anything else any other company is doing now. (or maybe "trying to do" is a better description) But I do want all of us to realize that while competition can be helpful in a big marketplace, we don't operate in a big market here. We always will be a small market, and the reward of the GS enthusiast, who will pay a little more, is quality and performance. And that is what owning a Buick is all about. __________________
When I ordered my Bulldogs (fairly recently), I was told there now are two versions available, just as like Bulldog manufactures for big block Mopars. A street dog & track dog. The difference is supposed to be increased flow numbers right out of the box. I always thought there was only the one version which have been getting some pretty good rave, in respect for flow potential from a stage 1 port configuration. They also come in semi assembled versions less the springs retainers seals and locks. Yes I am running roller rockers but only the 1.6 versions. I 'll definitely need to check for pushrod clearance Jeff what length and dia pushrod were you running? Tom
Yes, it's nice to not have to be so diplomatic anymore.. and to be able to take a bolder stand than when I was "head of everything".. that tends to be a stifling situation, if your working with the best interest of the organizations or club your heading in mind.. the smart men among us realize that, and hold their tongues when they are in those positions. I'm just a guy who works on Buicks these days, so it's a bit of freedom from that yoke.. And like I said, I don't mean to bash anyone who does not buy from TA.. really guys, don't take it personally. You got convinced that going with someone else was in your best interest.. But was it? Do you really believe that? If you do, then great.. but I hear the stories that don't make it to the board here.. and it's not vendors telling me.. it's customers or just Buick folks who call for advice or to chat.. The reality here is that we have a small consumer pool, and we have a lot of BS politics going on in the community.. "This guy does not like that guy.. so let's get guy B to do something to hurt him". I won't go into details, so don't ask, but it is a sad state of affairs. And the products that you see these days, including all these various heads, have that "we'll show him" as at least a component of the reason they got done. Choice is fine, I like that, but after a careful analysis of cost vs performance and quality, I decided to do myself and my customer's a favor, and stick with the company that brought us out of the dark ages.. 20 years ago. And this chevy rocker deal just plain ol' makes me mad.. them trying to sell us an inferior design. Ya, market that to the sheep who buy off the recommendations on horsepower TV Us Buick folks are smarter than that. JW
Tom, If your cam is out .500 lift, you will need to clearance. My pushrods are 5/16 and rockers are TA 1.65. It is a better design than factory, more spring clearance, others may argue.
