I must say I wouldn't jump on the Chevy rocker arm deal so quickly, because they really not all that great. I have many friends who are diehard Chevy guys and at one time or another they've had issues with studs pulling out of the heads, stud girdles coming loose and bending pushrods, broken rocker arms, etc. I would imagine this is true partly because there is a TON of inferior and "crap" parts made for Chevys by so many different vendors. I've only been in the Buick "scene" for about 10 years but I can honestly say I've never had 1 problem with my TA roller rockers. At least with TA you know you're getting a quality product.
I agree with JW completely. I know several guys that were racing when Kenne Bell was the only game in town for performance parts. I don't hear so much these days, but there was a lot of growling when Jim Bell left the v8 buick community. Just immagine where we would be if Mike decided that TAPerformance should go in another direction than our beloved buicks!
I kind of think TA took over where Kenne-Bell left off. Even though they were in direct competition with each other for a while, they even had a bit of co-operation on several products if I'm not mistaken. It's no secret that TA has done more for the 455 as far as products go than any other manufacturer. Unfortunately, quality parts for the BBB are not cheap. When Bulldog and now Edelbrock enter into the picture, they generate a lot of interest because of the price point. We would all like an infinite choice of quality hi-perf parts like the brand-xers have, but that's just not going to happen. A set of aluminum heads are working their way to the top of my "list". I wanted to wait to see how the Bulldogs turn out for the masses and read some feedback on them (just like some in this post) before making a decision. I am not against spending more money even on the "everyday" price of TA's, but with the comfort of knowing that Mike's heads are truely high-quality pieces and that part of the proceeds make continued parts development possible. Even with Edelbrock's making a debut, for me, it's still a one horse race. Sure will be interesting to see what the Edelbrocks flow... :laugh:
Hey Guys and Gals, Sometimes more competition is good and sometimes it is not. This is a situation where additional competition is probably not a good thing for the Buick community as a whole. T/A provides us with a very good product when it comes to cylinder heads at a very reasonable price. I have only seen junk from Ebrock!!! And Bdog.... who knows when there going to have product to sell so dont wait.... just call T/A and get them off of his shelf. But the subject of rocker arms has come up before and discussed at length several times. If Ebrock can produce a cylinder head that uses a less costly chevy style rocker arm system then they are going to have an edge cost wise over T/A. A $700 set or rocker arms is tough to swallow. When I first started out racing these Buicks it didn't bother me to pay $2000 for a set of heads. It KILLED me to shell out the $$$ for the rockers. Especially when the Olds and Poncho guys are paying $250. I doubt I am the only person who feels the same way regarding the rocker arms. Buick T/A wish list... Less costly rocker arms!!! But.. this is America...... and how it works. Later
JW, I've seen it brought up here before how Edelbrock should make a RPM type intake manifold for the BBB's. My question is would it be possible for TA to make a RPM type manifold if Edelbrock wont. Or are one of the intake manifolds TA makes now about the same thing as an RPM?
Hey JW... Can't you talk Mike at TA into making the 350 stuff we need like the alum. heads and single plane intake before some other Bonehead makes them and screws them up and ruin our engines then we will never be reconized. Thank you. You see how fast I am going just on Nitrous. Just think Alum heads on that and Single Plane. :3gears: :3gears: :3gears:
Ok Lets look at this chevy rocker deal.No one has mentioned this.A buick has a 1.35 rocker pivot length(distance from the cl of the shaft to the cl of the rocker tip).Now a chevy has a 1.545 pivot length.So you end up with a longer rocker arm.Now you need to move the rocker mounting location toward the intake manifold which in turn moves the pushrod the same way.We have very limited space under the valve covers.What you end up with with the long rocker arm is valve cover interference problems.Talk to some one with Jesel or T&d individual shaft style rockers currently there is 1 valve cover to run and thats from Unique Aluminum Prods. Steve Renolds is working on a set.The only other thing you can do is cut open your TA valve covers and box this area to allow clearance.My Jesel rockers are 1.75 ratio and I had to move my pushrod to with in .500 of the intake face of the cylinder head.Now try this with a 1.60 ratio rocker and the pushrod will be farther into the intake face.Next look at the height difference with poly locks etc on top of the stud mount rockers.Our valve covers are not tall enough to allow for this Ok lets look at what edelbrock would have to do to make this happen.Option 1 roll the valve angle to 10 degrees(ta stg 3-4 is 15)in order to bring the rocker back into the cylinder head.Option 2 extend the intake face to allow more pushrod clearance.Either way you look at this deal we will need new valve covers to make room for the chevy Sh!@.They are going to reinvent the wheel for a loosing proposition.I don't think the Edelbrock head will hit the market with the chevy rocker.If it does you'll end up screwing with the heads to make it right.This is not a add rocker stud and run chevy rocker situation it's not that simple. TA has the market cornered for GOOD BUICK cylinder heads period.Edelbrock heads suck unless it's a ford or a chevy the Olds head is junk flow in the 330-340 range max ported TA STG1 has gone over 370.The Pontiac head sucks unless Butler does his wide port cnc deal still only flow 370 big deal.All of the ta heads will surpass these #'s at peak and across the flow range where it matters.My point is this if you are going to spend the money on head a buy something you can grow into the TA head will carry you along way before you need to step up.The Edelbrock head will be a stock replacement(port wise) and you will grow out of it.You all know this speed addiction your never happy you must go faster.For someone who just wants to pound a set of aluminum heads on for cheap then maybe Edelbrock is your choice but if you want to go fast with class TA IS THE ONLY WAY.
I have talked quite a bit with Mike about making an Air gap dual plane for the BBB, recently in fact. Maybe he will make just that.. I don't know. In regards to Roller Rockers and street motors, I like 1.55 and 1.6 TA rockers, but I see them as a nice solid dependablity piece. But often somewhat short of a necessity for alot of the motors in this catagory. I am no fan of 1.65's on a hydraulic cam.. been there done that, odds are you just bolted on a rpm restriction, I have seen it as low as 5100 rpm, and the simple fact that while on paper the higher lift should make more power, in reality, the engine does not care about that extra ratio. I really like the 1.55 ratio for a durablity upgrade beyond stockers with good shafts, but the $655 often can be spent in more important places.. upgrading to TA Sportsman rods instead of bolting resizing and freezing stockers comes to mind right off the bat.. it's a cost effective upgrade, and if it were my motor and the budget was limited, the con rods would get the nod over the rockers.. broken rocker shafts are an annoyance.. broken rods really ruin your day. I would really like to see a 67-9 style setup, with HD shafts and 5/16 pushrod cups, as being a good alternative to the more expensive roller rockers, but a step up from the stamped steel stuff. Right now you can use that nicer early setup, but it requires hybred pushrods. And I am not a big fan of adjustable pushrods, nor the fooling around to make hybred solid rods. As far as price goes, go out and search what a quality shaft mount roller rocker setup goes for.. TA's price is right in line with the higher end Mopar and Ford stuff from Jegs and Summit. And we already covered the stud mount deal.. :rant:
T&D pedistal mount rockers Here are 1.7 T&D's pedestals under stock valve covers. 3 rubber gaskets, and a little tap-tap.... I would hope that Edelbrock would make something that fit. Most would use Edelbrocks as stock replacement. Chevy rockers are cheep but if they don't fit, whats the point.
After some good reading about this situation, I have taken a new understanding on this. I agree that TA has done the best for our parts supply and even have alot of their parts on my cars. I don't want to sound like an idiot, but,I think the thing that hasn;t been adressed is the little guy like me who wants to run fast but can't quite afford some of the necessary parts to go faster. I am not intending on 9 second passes in my 2 street cars but I would like to in the all out car I am scavenging parts for. To me, a set of $600 Roller rockers are just a bit out of my price range since I have things like a house, child support,2 daily driver cars and bills. For me to pay that I need to realign some things just to be able to pay for them. My only option is to try to get deals when others step it up on their cars.So far its been working great that way. It is too bad that we really only have one guy who has stepped up to the plate to produce parts for our cars. I congratulate Mike and thank him for this. I will say 1 thing, I have learned the hard way that you get what you pay for on speed parts. It would be great to see TA able to possibly produce a budget set of Roller rockers for guys like me. I know this is a fantasy and probably monetarily and durability not realistic,but a guy can wish...I get really bummed when I see things for not only Chevy cars,but Fords,Olds and Pontiacs are being produced for 1/3 of Buick parts. It didn't take me long to realize its not cheap to build a Buick,so like most here, I am in the same boat as you. I will continue buying from TA, and who knows, maybe next year is the year for some aluminum heads. I have seen them utilized and know how well they perform,as for Ebrocks....well...I guess time will tell,and I am not going to be the one to be 1st in line to try them.I will wait and see how others do with them.
yeah, its definatly no secret that a BBB is very expensive to rebuild with some high HP figures. The whole timing cover deal, roller rockers, heads... there is a lot of $$$$ involved to really make a decent motor. There is alot of assumptions about the new heads, durabilty, quality. we can speculate and toss as much knowledge around as possible, but thats about as good washing your hands with grease- doesn't getcha anywhere. Edelbrock has good parts, and good machinery and probably some of the smartest engineers/machinists around. I have a hard time believeing that they cobbed a set cylinder heads. we have to wait and see. Maybe they are the best out there- it is possible, maybe they do suck. lets wait and see before we outcast them TA is the Buick leader for sure, but in all reality its hard to deal with their prices. I understand the market size, I know why they are expensive but it kinda sucks. Everyone knows someone, if not personally slammed a SBC together and had a stout, dead reliable motor in the 12s for 1500 bucks. its sucks, palin and simple. I hope that some of these big companys like Edelbrock, holley, Moroso started offeringsome Buick parts. Might not be the best thing for TA, but it would be nice to see the prices go down. two heads are better than one, maybe some of these so called "chevy" companys could come up with some trick solutions. A BBB is like any other motor- the more air you get in and out the more power you make. simple. I don't understand why people only trust TA. its not rocket science.
Heads I don't understand why so many people are complaining about this! No wonder why big companies don't want to get involved with developing new Buick parts!People complain that no one else builds new Buick parts, but when they do people complain also!What's wrong with you people? This is what we have all been asking for, and it finally has happened. Please dont let your whining screw it up!
Edel. heads FYI I just got back from PRI and I have observed and examined the new Edelbrock BBB head on display. Looks like a copy of a factory steel head, with the exception of the rocker mounts. It had valves and springs, but no rockers mounted. Ports looked to be very small, especially on the exhaust side. One of their salespersons said he would send me the flow numbers. If I get them I'll pass them along. Overall they looked OK, like most of Edelbrocks castings. (But I think TA's look better!) I think variety is normally a good thing, BUT in this case I tend to agree with Jim. At this point TA definitly builds the best heads out there for our Buicks, (and are VERY GOOD by any brands standards). If the price for the Edelbrocks is only slightly lower, why bother? If I learn more from them, I'll be sure to pass it along! Steve
Not necessarily How many GOOD Mom & Pop harware stores closed shop because Home Depot came to town ?? Ever try getting Grade-8 bolts at HD ?? ou: Mom & Pops always had them
Hi Guys, Unfortunately many, many have let ONLY price, and price alone, dictate their purchases. It amazes me how so many have the "gotta-have-it-now!...but I don't have enough $$$ for the quality product so I'll skimp" attitude. Also unfortunately you get what you pay for and cheap IS cheap! Edelbrock is the Wally World of Auto "Performance" parts and don't pull the wool over your own eyes....he's out to take over. Look at all the companies his company has bought out and it's ever expanding almost daily.:Smarty: Remember this old saying, it is truely applicable here.... QUALITY IS REMEMBERED L-O-N-G AFTER PRICE IS FORGOTTEN!! Besides....The "chunk-o-change thing" has actually been quite gratiously address by Mike and TA with their.... Taken from page 5 of TA's Spring 2005 catalog..... -------------------TA's EZ Payment Layaway Plan--------------------- TA Performance will help you purchase the parts that you need, but maybe cannot afford to purchase all at one time. We will allow you to make interest free payments against one or more items until the part(s) are paid for, or you are ready to have us ship the item(s) for the remaining balance. This program has worked out great for many of our customers wanting to purchase items like our cylinder heads, block girdle or engine assemblies. We will set aside the ordered part(s) in your name upon receipt of your first payment. If for some reason the part(s) are out of stock at that time, you will be guaranteed an item for the next re-order/production run. Layaway orders must be completed within 12 months. If you decide to cancel after one or more payments, a re-stocking fee will NOT be applied towards normally inventoried items. However, special ordered items will be subject to a re-stocking fee as a minimum. Think about it guys.....so what if other companies, who actually give a rat's (you-know-what) about Buicks, make a cheap knock-off part to fit your Buick. DO NOT, for one second, kid yourself into thinking that there is much (if any at all truely) R&D from "E" concerning these heads much beyond bore-spacing, valve angle, port location and bolt-hole location. They don't/can't make a stock-configured rocker set-up for what they can sell their crap SBC roller rockers for and still make their targeted profit margin. Do not fool yourself into thinking there is not a "targeted profit margin" either.:Smarty: "E" is out to put as many $$$ in their pockets from whom-ever they can get it from. That adds to the "E" empire and little else more and then the end result is to use YOUR Buick money for further Brand X development because the Buick stuff will not sell hundreds-of-thousands of units. Shivvie will, with I'm sure Ford a close second. Mike Tomaszewski and TA performance has dedicated their time, money and energy to help make Buick the cream-of-the-crop! He has not made a few items here and there and when the going was tough bailed out on us and left us with nothing and no where to go. ALL of our $$$, in one way or another, is re-invested back into more and better Buick parts FOR US!! Think long and hard before cutting the true lifeline we Buick guys (and girls) need from TA. "E" has had several decades to do something...anything meaningful for the Buick community (beyond one form or another of a factory knock-off intake manifold!). Has "E" EVER stepped up for us??o No: Why not?....Why now?? Well to me, it's obviously now seen that there is a market, a small one abeit but still some additional cash to monopolize on. PLEASE think long and hard about putting your cash, where in the very near future, it may no longer do you or any of your fellow Buick brothers any good what-so-ever!:TU: Thanks for letting me vent everyone..
