Start at the back and work forward. Most go the other way and wonder why things keep breaking. By the time you decide on an engine the rest of the car should already be able to handle more than you plan on throwing at it.
Start with small projects, if it is driving nice then enjoy while you build up another Buick 350 maybe?:beers2:
11.81@114 with a125 shot of nitrous. 12.00@110 with a 75 shot of nitrous, and you are asking if you should drop in something different. NO! I was at a car show last night and some had some kind of Chevy motor in but I seen one with a blown Hemi, and a mod motor Ford engine in a very old car. But I seen a lot of Mopars with Mopar engines, Chevys with Chevy engines. Ford with Ford engines. The very old cars are the ones that had different motors in but for the most part the cars had their original style motors in them.
Well, then if you are starting from scratch and you have none of this done and you have no stock pile of Buick speed parts, then you will go way faster with LS power for less money. That is just reality. It will pretty much take nitrous to get a Buick 350 to run like a good LS engine.
For an all motor 11 sec. blast, it would be tough to build 500hp cheaper than a 6.0L LQ4 or LQ9. You're talking a cam and headers. Head work would be a bonus. I've seen complete 6.0L engines with wiring and computer for $1000 or less, good roller cam and gaskets for $500ish, good long tube headers for $500-750. Even a 5.3L with a cam & headers is 400hp+. None of this means the 350 Buick is a bad choice. But, you did ask the cheapest route.
I think I'm reaching an inescapable conclusion here, but I'm not sure you are going to like it. Considering that the LS series engines' vast superiority is based entirely on incremental improvements, some of which could not be applied to the SBB at a cost competitive to what the new technology can be purchased for outright in a newer engine (at least this is what you all seem to be telling me), then the only logical path is to get as much of those incremental improvements as possible in an engine that is the easiest to install in an MGB. This engine is clearly and obviously the 5 liter Ford small block. All parts needed to install that engine are available for purchase. Body modifications are within the reach of anyone who can weld. Paint is usually a part of a conversion. Compared to an LS swap the cost is very low, almost as low as a SBB or BOPR swap. It has the roller rockers, roller cam, EFI, EDIS, and electronic engine management. What it lacks that the LS type engine has is minimal compared to the cost difference to fabricate parts to do the LS iinstall. So I will henceforth recommend the SBF swap instead of the SBB swap. Your arguments have convinced me. I will not, however plan a SBF swap for my own car, but continue the 340 swap to completion. It will be the last Buick swap I do. Kind of a shame really, to reach the end of an era. But nothing lasts forever. JB
I completely agree with "bammax", start at the rear and move forward. I always do that. I built a 68 Skylark and started with a Chevy 12 bolt posi and boxed arms and new hard bushings and adjustable uppers. Moved to the trans and put in a 400 Switch-pitch and then to putting in a cage and redoing the front end. This was a high school project car and by then the end of the year was getting close so we just put the original 350 back in it and went racing. By the 3rd time out we won and was winning on a regular bases. We then put a built 455 in it and all worked well and kept winning. Built my NSS 67, starting by pulling the frame out and back-halfing it and fixing the frame and installing 12 point cage and then to power train. My wife's Regal, installed 9" and good rear bars and finally a good engine. I like a car to hook and you have to start there first to win races. My 2 cents, Jim N.
Think about the other side of the coin also. Unless you figure that you are going to trash this car so bad at the track that no one else is going to want it you need to think about the resale. I know that I would pay more for, and be more willing to buy a buick with a buick motor than a faster Buick with an LS or any other non Buick engine in it.
Jim, For an MGB engine swap, a 302 isn't a bad option. It's more compact than most V8's, plus the dist. is up front. Not sure what you'd need for the oil pan sump. For a late model engine with all those features you mentioned, I'd look at a 97-01 Explorer/Mountaineer GT40P engine. Only thing I wouldn't do is try to build too much power with one. The 302 is notorious for splitting in two....literally. 550-600hp is pretty much the limit. Obviously not a big issue for a driver with mild-medium performance.
You are right about the 302 block only taking about 500 horse. My brother broke one once he put the procharger on. He had to move to a 347. the engine had a girdle also.
Doesn't matter. 500 hp is a 4.6 hp/weight ratio. That's like 740 hp in a GS. Anybody who needs more than that is in a very special category and will just have to deal with it. If they want to go to the trouble of getting 600 hp then they can do some things to lighten the car and 2100 lbs is well within reach. That's a 3.5 ratio, which is like 970 hp in a GS. So I think anyone who can beat out a thousand horsepower GS might be willing to take that chance. You guys have convinced me. It's definitely the way to get cheap horsepower in an MGB. You can buy a modified front crossmember from Mantell Motorsports that's cut down for the pan clearance and has the Ford motor mounts welded in place, or spring for the lighter and better Fast Cars complete coil-over front suspension which drops 80 pounds off the front end. Either way, you've got your headers and everything else you need. There's just no excuse at all to use a Buick motor. JB
I'm not sure I'd go that far Jim. There were actually several people who defended the use of a SBB in your application. Part of the reason the thread deteriorated was the lack of clarity in the original post concerning your goals, specific application, etc. After all of the convoluted discussion, there were pros, cons and basic ties for all three engine types as it applies to your application. Here's how I look at it, for what it's worth, and please correct me if I am mistaken. Weight is pretty much a wash. All three engines are relatively light and I don't see it being a huge factor in anything other than a purpose built racer. Same can be said for horsepower. 450-500 hp is attainable with all three engines. The Buick should have a slight torque advantage and a smoother, less peaky powerband, at least as compared to the SBF. Not sure about the LS as I really have no experience with them. That would be a plus in the Buick column in my book. Another plus, though not performance oriented, is the fact that SBB's were optional in your vehicle. Cost of the build? If I were to choose an engine based solely on cost, the Buick would lose, at least in my current location. SBF's and LS's are both cheap and plentiful here. Not sure about your local scenario. One would think that Buick/Rover stuff would be a little less cost restrictive for you. Sounds like (again, correct me if I am mistaken) the parts for the conversion to SBB and SBF are both readily available, but not so much for the LS. That would be a big factor for someone afraid of fabbing parts without the budget to pay someone else for the work. For me, I'd go with the Buick. I like the smoother powerband vs. the Ford, I like the fact it's an optional engine for your car, the swaps have been done a lot so there's a ton of support available when doing the conversion and for the horsepower target you are aiming at, it will easily hold it's own against either of the other engines. I wouldn't mind paying extra money for what I would consider the proper engine for the application. If it really just comes down to cost, go with the SBF. I don't have scads of money, but for me the budget just can't be the only factor in determining a path to completing a project. I'd rather wait six months, or a year, or two if need be, to build the car I really want. Sorry about the rant...
...and by the way, I'm really excited to see how your current 340 project turns out. Please keep us updated on how that progresses. I'm sorry this situation has been frustrating for you. I'm relatively new as a member, but I've been lurking about the board for years. It's projects like your's that kept me coming back here and eventually signing up. :beers2:
I have to say, if I had more cash and time, I would see what I could ring out of the little 300" just to see what I could do. I am sure it would eventually involve a turbo charger though.
Sheldon said it well. The Ford would be my personal last choice because to get the equivelent horsepower out of a SBF as compared to a SBB you would end up with a very peaky engine torquewise, where as the buick would still have a fairly broad torque band.
Why would the 5L Ford be any different in that regard than the LS? Both have roller cams. Both use EFI. Both have electronic engine controllers. Seems to me both would have similar horsepower profiles. Since the LS is so much better than the SBB in every way possible it seems like the 5L Ford would be too. Other than block strength. JB
You would have to see an LS motor in pieces to see why it works so well. For the most part, the superior head design is where most of the horsepower comes from but it is the culmination of 40 years of improved technology.
Just because two engines have similar infrastructure and and air/fuel management does not necessarily mean they're going to have similar output or power bands. Head design, bore/stroke ratio, bearing journal sizes and a myriad of other things affect that. One only has to look at Buick/Olds/Pontiac/Chevy 350s to see that. That's four engines from the same corporation, all introduced in the same basic time frame, using technologically similar infrastructure with practically identical air/fuel control and having radically different characteristics. Maybe I'm still not clear on the motive behind your query. The way I interpreted it, you wanted to know our opinions on which engine would be the best choice for your particular application. Which engine is the best technologically or makes the most horsepower when built all out isn't always the bottom line for me when mapping out a project, nor is overall cost. It just depends on what I'm trying to accomplish. That's me, though. All of these engines have good points for your application. They'll all meet the power level you are aiming for and do so with relative dependability. There are so many variables to consider, though. Cost, ease of conversion, parts availability, power band characteristics, aesthetics of the transplant... I already outlined the why's for my choice. I guess the real question is would the car be better with an engine other than the Buick installed in it. If you're not looking to wring any more power out of it, I'd say probably not, at least performance wise. The LS might have better day to day city driving manners and would probably get better mileage, but is that what building a lightweight v8 powered sports car is all about? Not for me.
Jim, The only real 'advantage' if you will, of a 302 vs. an LSx engine is the compactness. Other than that, the LS's are substantially improved over the 302. Just comparing stock head flow is a huge difference. Ported stock heads favors the LSx even better. The fact that they're aluminum helps keep excess weight off the front end. I have to ask though.....for the power level you're looking for (I'm guessing 350-450hp) - what is wrong with a well built 4.6L Rover engine? Now that TA has those Rover/Buick heads out, that should be a huge plus. Even a naturally aspirated version should meet your goals. A turbo might help give the best of both worlds though....power and drivability.
But believe it or not, on forums like BritishV8 and MGExperience people look to me for answers and respect my opinion. the problem is Jim, the answer you want is for a very specific application while the question you *asked* was very general and vague. this has taken the whole thread off the rails from what you wanted. many of the advantages to the Buick swap lie in the specific externalities for your application. i doubt very much that there's any 45 year old engine which could compete with it's 45 year newer replacement and go toe-to-toe with it. you could make an assertion about late-70s smog motors not being as good as a 1934 straight 8 Duesenberg ( :Brow: ) but i think we can all agree that the DOHC, 4 valve per cylinder, supercharged Duesie would have a hell of a time trying to meet 1980 era emissions tests. even us Buick guys don't know much about the small blocks. casting number info ( please check your pm's ) is almost impossible to find. all the major development work stateside has gone into the BBB and the turbo v6. then you have the problem with the cam / valve swap for the 1967 model year / 350 introduction. this, along with the switch from alum to cast iron has disjointed the domestic SBB efforts. how are we supposed to build a knowledge base around an engine which was only in production for two years ( the 340 ) or at most, four ( the 300 )? the parts and experimentation simply hasn't been there. there have been people playing with the 215 / 300 / 340 over the years ( flipping back through old car mags you will see headlines on these things every so often ) but it's never reached critical mass. it's always one or two guys ( remember Nic? ) who devote a lot of time to the issue finding out how cool the engines are and developing a knowledge base of swaps ... but there has never been enough of them at one time to hit critical mass. we're losing the knowledge they put together because, prior to the internet, it was almost impossible for us to find each other. the sad fact is that Rover and HAMB guys probably know far more about these engines than most US Buick people do. but that's because they've got an installed base, a thriving production and OEM market ( up until 2004 ) and an active modding scene involving these engines ( the UK ). as an example, TA used to have the wrong valve order listed in their small block FAQ until i dinged them to correct it. but that info was hosted for YEARS until someone who a - actually knew what the valve order was supposed to be and b - bothered to read the FAQ pointed that out. what is wrong with a well built 4.6L Rover engine? Now that TA has those Rover/Buick heads out, remember, the Rover heads will also work on the 340 / 300. not that i'm saying there's anything wrong with the Rover but you are giving up displacement.
