Help me out here guys. I've got a LS enthusiast claiming magical properties for the chebby LS series engines on a forum where many different engines are discussed but the Buick engines are generally viewed with some favor and at least for now are more or less holding their own against SBFs and the like. But this new LS invasion is going to be tough. I need some ammunition. JB
It's tough to beat an LS with fact against fact. Light weight, cheap mod's and bolt on's for gobs of power, doesn't leak, tough oiling system, roller everything, incredible flowing intake/heads/exhaust. There is a 370 SAE HP LS engine in my truck that's as gentle as a kitten, passes tough emissions and gets 18mpg. It's pretty ridiculous. And I wouldn't insult the LS with a chevy name, it only shares the bore centers, that's it. It's a cummulation of refined engineering by the General that stomps the chebby's too.
Not goin to win that battle. The Gen3/4 motors are the best motors to come out of detroit ever. Except for the big Caddy motors from the 70's. Best ammo you have is that the Buick motor is old school and alot harder to come by which makes it cool. The Gen3/4 motors you can refer to as "junkyard truck motors" and that's about as much as you can razz them.
Yup, style and soul is about it. Chad makes pretty good commentary on how the LS's just aren't as cool as a big block (I know this is about a small block) even when they make more power. http://www.bangshift.com/blog/Chadmouth-Substitutes.-aka-Tofurkey-Light-Beer-LS-Engines.html The question he essentially can be asked is "Parked side by side, which is cooler, an old car with an LS engine or one with an old school mill?" The old school mill is.
No ammunition. You will have to bluff your way out of this one. An LS can produce seriously cheap H.P. in a variety of ways. Sorry.
only way it'd be better then an ls or almost as good is if you were talking to a guy that converted their lsx to carb...or someone converted the buick to fuel injection lol the weights are too far off stock sbb350 weighs about 450lbs and when you add headers and al intake that knocks it down to like 410ish I believe ls1 weighs around 385? but as the guys mentioned the best old school engine is definatly the sbb350 and *gasp* the sbm 340 as buick is a torque master and eats up chevys and the 340 revs and kills on some bigblocks
I've always looked at like the Harley guys finally did. They had a hard time when the crotch rockets busted on the scene, out running everything "cool". But Harley finally overcame the fast crowd stigma, then became the "cool factor" enigma that it is today. In other words, it's not that uncommon to see some other brand going fast, but it's very uncommon to see them going fast and being cool at the same time. LSX's are a force to be reckoned with, but let's be honest, it takes a LS transplant into "anything" to make it interesting. And lets not forget the old saying "going fast with class". No other brand can EVER do that like Buick. Oh yeah, we've always had our opinions about the hardcore SBC guys, but now there there's a prettier whore in town. I've read on several boards were SBC guys are now bad mouthing their aged and outdated ole SBC and now touting their new younger and lighter LSX as the next best thing. Sadly, this time they "might" be right, but we'll see.....
I can't believe how you guys are laying down on this. Seriously, you really think the LS is that much better? Back in the 70's it was SBC this and SBC that and oh, it was just a magical engine that was decades ahead of anything else and it's the same thing now as far as I can see, hype and superhype. Was it true back then? Not really. So why believe it now when it's the same machine pouring out the publicity? They put their engine on a diet. Well, it's not like it didn't need it. They gave it fuel injection, but big whoop, everybody and his brother has fuel injection these days. Take it from me, it ain't hard to inject a SBB. If a 350 can come within 25 lbs of an LS I call that a wash. Guess what, a 340 can go lower than that with the right heads. Dollar for dollar you really think a SBB can't be competitive? I'm not so sure. Seems to me with the premium prices on the LS the difference could just about pay for a set of TA heads. Wouldn't that level the field a little? I thought you guys would want to fight this battle, I can't believe you're just throwing in the towel. Up to now I've pointed out the benefits of the SBB line (and the BBB) on that other forum and we've managed to hold our own against a deluge of V6s, SBFs and turbo ecotecs and what not, because the SBB engine really is just that good. Believe it or not, that has been without the benefit of the 350 even being in the fight. So maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the LS really is that much better. Roller this, roller that, why doesn't it have roller rod bearings I'd like to know if it's so all fired magical. Seriously, all you can come up with is that it's "old school"? Really? I'm disappointed with you guys. JB
I am not really seeing the point in comparing the two engines, they are both good in different ways. The LS engines are great, they make great power and seem to last well. I think the Buick 350 will prove to also meet both of those goals in the future with what myself and others are doing. Bottom line is people will begin to expect LS engines in all the cars at the car shows... The LS is the new SBC. Why follow the crowd? Most take the safe and most traveled route while a few of us push on with old Buick 350s or AMC 401 etc. Even the AMC guys have alum heads and us poor Buick 350 guys are paying 2500 for head porting LOL! Rant over LOL:TU:
I've considered putting an LS motor in Pandora (with the Malibu Wagon reengining project and the El Camino EV project it will take time before I get Pandora started). The Buick small block and big block may be remarkable engines but time and technology has passed them by, just like it did the Buick Nailhead and the original Chrysler Firepower (hemi) V8. You can build a Buick V8 for great performance or for decent performance with good fuel economy but the new GM Gen 3 & 4 engines have a newer, more efficient design that allows them to provide a combination of performance and economy that old school motors (I'm including the small block Chevy, the Big Block Chevy, Ford Windsor V8 and anything Chrysler built before the current Hemi) can't touch. That's the fact, like it or not. That said, I'm still seriously considering building a Buick 350 because I suspect it has more personality than any of the more modern motors out there. Besides, it would be a lot more fun to lift the hood and reveal a B350 at car shows.
OK, fine, then exactly what is it that makes it better and why? Can we at least start with that? The similarities we know. Both are V8, blah blah blah. Is it the coils? Easy enough to change. The intake runners? (Are they really better than the runners in a TA head?) Roller rockers? We have those too. Roller cam? I think we have those now also. What's left that makes it so magical and all conquering that you guys are scared to death of it? I mean I really don't get it. Combustion chamber shape is important but it isn't all that. Computer control? Not a problem. Heck man, it's an aluminum motor that weighs a whopping 385 pounds for pete's sake. The little SBB (and Rover) comes in at 318. How is that progress? Honestly, I'll take an iron block. I like that solid feel when I torque things down. I like liners that don't move and threads that stay put. For an aluminum motor, the danged thing is HEAVY! (sounds just like a SBC don't it?) These other motors we've been discussing, are the topic of interest for swapping into small sports cars. If you work at it hard enough you can make an LS presentable, and for the time being at least it does have a wow factor for those swaps just because it is still relatively scarce there. I think there are something like two or three of them now running. But hecky-doodle man, we've put a 455 in one of these cars too! And a blown/injected 340! So it's not like they are the absolute horsepower kings or something ludicrous like that. I just want to know, if you fit the SBB with the newer gizmos that the LS has, all of which is more than possible and has been done already, then at that point what's the LS got that the SBB does not, and is it enough to tip the scales? Doesn't leak? Build it right and a SBB doesn't either. No, actually what I want is a good counter argument. I'm not interested in any namby pamby defensive posture, I want to know why the SBB would be the better choice. We may not get much more mileage out of "It's the most widely used engine" or "It has the stamp of OEM approval". V6 GMs and 5L fords have been eating away at those arguments for several years now and they are beginning to sound a little weak. The two aforementioned Buick powered cars will bolster the position of our faction, but with LS powered cars coming out we need a good strategy. GMs all pervasive superhype isn't going to be countered just by saying a SBB is "as good as", we need to be able to say it's better. So don't just tell me it's not possible. If you don't mind, let's have the specifics as to why. Then at least we can look at where the SBB does have the advantage. JB
Compare apples and apples. Two stock motors. You mentioned heads. Add them and the H.P. differences and look at the money spent. There will be no point in time where the SBB catches the LS for the same (or even close) money. Can you or JW build an all out 350. Sure, but the LS will still win if the same money is spent on it. 40 years of tech. They are getting well over 2 x HP/Cubic inch with reliability. I am not an expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. You didn't ask which I would rather have.
Bone stock 500+ horses and can be built to 1,000 horses fairly easily without even opening up the bottom end. In stock form they last for hundreds of thousands of miles without needing to be rebuilt. They weigh very little for a better power to weight ratio in almost anything they go into. They are easy to come by and easy to get parts for. If you're smart enough to stop calling them LS engines than you end up with an LQ4/9 which is 6 litres for under a grand. If you need more than you can step up to the Gen4 and get 6.2 litres of proven power making technology with the "new engine" premium which is still cheaper than a set of heads for a SBB. The turbo 3.8 and a TA Aluminum 455 would be closer to an even battle, but an iron SBB with iron heads would need a good bit of work to match up. Think serpentine setup, fuel injection, roller rockers, hyd roller cam, firing order swap, tight clearances, efficient accessories, electric fans and fuel pump. And to prove your point none of the upgrades can come from a junkyard Gen3/4, motor which makes things a bit tricky when you try to do the fuel injection since you'll need sensors and wiring.
You're bringing a knife to a gun fight. There are still people around saying the Flathead engines beat the OHV engines too. My opinion is, you are mis-guided if you think the LS engine is even related to the SBC. It shares a dimensional bore center, that's it. It's essentially a clean sheet engine that used 40 years of OHV experience to build a better engine. The dollar vs dollar, HP vs HP and the longevity vs longevity for pretty much any classic engine built pre'-90 (or later!) will lose to an LS series engine.
Let's see..... Deep skirt block Six bolt mains keyed into the block Good oiling system dry valley Cool intake runners Factory heads that flow better than 300cfm on the intake Available for less than $1500 anywhere complete with computer and wiring In stock form can make 400+hp all day Throw some boost to them and they will live at 800 to 1000hp with the stock bottom end!!! I guess I don't see why they are so good?uzzled: As much as I love my Buick motors I also have a huge respect to these motors. I just got done putting a LQ9 into my nephews 85 Camaro and it is as fast as my GS and is a STOCK truck motor. Mike
You guys aren't helping. OK. I know you are all Gaga over this mill. I get it, OK? But this used to be a Buick forum. What it is now I'm not too sure. Because what you are doing is bashing Buick engines for the benefit of the general's new toy. You're seriously going to claim that under no circumstances imaginable would the Buick be a preferred engine EXCEPT because it is OLD?!! I see. At this point I can't agree with you, but maybe at some later date I will. Maybe. "I am a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess." Red/Green, Possum Lodge Man's Prayer. JB
I couldn't agree more. I know this will get some upset but with all the Chebby engines going in Buick bodies, it makes me wonder if we have a lot of closet Chebby guys on this site. The thing I've always liked about this site is it's Buick and Buick power. I wonder now about the solidarity here. But to some here I'm old school and close minded. Hmmm?
I don't know man. Seems like a silly thing to even argue about to me. Yes the new engines will make tons of horse power for very little money and last well. They have pretty much improved every aspect of the engine and did a very good job on it. Bottom line is very few of us are going for absolute top power that we can afford in our cars. We want a very cool rig that is reliable, and we want it built our way. As long as you can get the performance that you want from the vintage Buick motor, who cares that they make a better motor today? I plan to eventually build a model A with a built flathead in it. I fully expect that a built flathead will cost a lot more than an LS engine and the extra work that would go into the frame to hold together, the built flathead will be fun, but never keep up with a cheap modern car, but it's cool and will perform well enough. Same thing with wanting a 65 with a nailhead. It's not that I couldn't get more for less money with a more modern engine, but it just wouldn't be as cool. Time moves on and the best of the muscle car era cars have been left in the dust as far as performance goes, but they are still fun and way cooler than a new car.
I think you are missing the point. Sticking your head in the sand and saying that a 40 plus year old engine is better than the new one, despite the facts isn't reality. Just because someone knows that a newer engine is a better design than what we run doesn't mean that we want that engine in our buick cars. Facts are facts and the new engine is very impressive. I would still rather have a nailhead in a hotrod, muscle car or old truck.
To me it's about loyalty. Otherwise I would just get a Chebby car to go with my Chebby engine. Imho. John.
