Question: SBB BETTER than an LS? Answer: No. My logic: The SBB is outdated. The V6, although sharing quite a few dimensional aspects, went on to overshadow it in both technology and popularity. If Buick really thought the V8 was going to be sustainable into the future, they would have tossed fuel injection, a turbocharger and intercooler on it and kept it in production. GM (re: Chevrolet) didn't want their flagship hotrod getting second chair on the performance bench to the Turbo Trans-Am, GN and GNX. Even GMC got admonished because of the Syclone and Typhoon with their 4.3 Turbo Chevy. The capability for GM to move forward with the SBB was there, but it wasn't in the cards. The LS series engines are superior in many aspects. The LS has a bulletproof bottom end, it's got endless aftermarket support, it's got great engine management, gets great gas milage and has exceptional horsepower. It's the "perfect" engine for making an older GM car into a dependable daily driver with turnkey starting in any weather. Although both the SBB and the LS engines lend themselves well to boost applications, it'd be cheaper to get boosted power from an LS than a SBB. It's not that we all *like* the LS motor, but it's not practical to deny recognizing the fact that the engine *is* better than a SBB. If it weren't, there'd be SBBs in all the Generals cars now...
When you get a pair of overhead cams complete with variable cam timing installed on the SBB, then you'll have a compelling argument. Until then, it's cool factor vs. refinement with high output. Valve trains with pushrods- it's Model A stuff, but I still love it. To each his own. It could be worse....he could desire to install a fart can on it, too :laugh:
I guess most of you guys haven't read the restated question, maybe one of you has sort of tried to answer it. So I'll try one more time, but that's it. If you can't get it right this time I'll have to assume you just can't understand english very well. Given the circumstances as stated (NOT your own present circumstances), what factors might persuade you that a Buick engine (any Buick engine) would be the right choice for your build? NOT max horsepower, 1300 hp in a 2300 pound car on the street would be ridiculous. Is that the car you want at home in your garage? Seriously? If it really is why don't you have one there already? Nobody is taking this seriously. Believe me please, the guys who are building these cars are very very serious. (at least when they are considering spending their own money) There might be one guy out of the entire bunch who would build a car like that, and believe it or not you are as likely as not talking to him, and he would as likely as not use the general's new toy to do it. So can we PLEASE move beyond this crap about knives and guns? It's NOT a gunfight we're talking about, it's a car you just want to have fun with. How you are going to have any fun with a complete terrormobile is beyond me, but if that's your thing who am I to say? Point is, the guy who wants a little over 300 hp isn't going to be happy with it. That's like 425hp in your GS versus 1920 hp. So can't you please be reasonable here? I gave you the parameters and the only thing I've gotten back so far is either you love Buicks so you'd use a Buick engine under any circumstances or you would use the LS under any circumstances. Really? Instead of an engine that bolts right in you'd make your own headers, make your own motor mounts, modify your steering, modify your swaybar, cut and weld your firewall, your frame rails, your inner fenders and your transmission tunnel, bearing in mind this is a unibody car so it's all structural? If that's all true why don't you have an LS in your Buick right now? I was asking for assistance with persuading builders to consider Buick power, and not just versus the LS but the SBF as well. Nobody seems to get that. Few of these guys go out on a limb with a completely one-off build, that's no different than over here. Most follow the leader and like to feel like they have something special. Which they do, at least in some sense. But they will follow, and if there is not a reason they understand for following a Buick build they'll go another way. Love for Buicks really hasn't got a darned thing to do with it. I'm the rare guy who likes to blaze trails so my motivations are completely different. I accept that I don't really understand why the others make the choices they make. I was hoping maybe some of you could help me with that. By the way, can you tell me more about the similarities between the LS and the Gen II 3800? I'm sincerely interested. JB edit: David and Phil, apparently our posts crossed, but it seems we may be making some progress.
In that car, as you say, I would be looking very hard at the L67 supercharged Gen II for the application described. Good fit (I suspect), unique, good smooth power and very strong. Low cost because of minimal demand. Megasquirt would allow managing a smooth power or remap for max boost and power (may require a bigger supercharger, or turbo conversion). 700-r4 or manual trans from a Camaro. LS is superior from every engineering perspective, cool because it apparently isn't being done. In this appplication particularly an aluminum 5.3l. Again, if injected power can be controlled by mapping the EFI without major fabrication of components. SBB for a more simple backyard guy that doesn't want to re-engineer the whole car but wants something fun. That is, if he can find a 215-300-340 these days and a thousand or more dollars to spend on the engine compared to the other options isn't a big deal. An Austin Healy with a tricked-out V8-60 is cool and fun to look at, and would perform "adequately" compared to a stocker; but I wouldn't want it as my own. You get less for more. I guess it depends on if car shows and bench-racing, or expense and spirited driving are your priority. As we get less and less places to open-up our cars, it may just come down to expense and uniqueness, period.
Plain and simple, keep the Buick motors in the Buicks. Look at it this way, you want to convince everybody that SBB are the engine of choice for swaps, but you have no way of explaining why that is when there are so many great choices out there. Plus if you somehow did convince people all it does is cause a shortage of engines for people who need replacements for thier Buicks. That jacks up prices and makes things harder for people who actually want the right engine in their car. If all the 32 Fords had Buick 350's what would you say to the guy with a Skylark with a cracked block who now can't find a replacement motor. It's not like they're making more SBB, and plenty are going to the scrappers every year due to rot, cracks, mismachining, or plain ignorance of their value. I'm a big fan of being unconventional, but you have to keep the tips and tricks to yourself or else everyone will do the same thing and you become just another of the pack. It's more fun to downplay something and then suprise someone than to build it up and disappoint. By the way, I'm not a fan of swapping across brands in general so you'll never convince me to swap a Buick into something that isn't a Buick. You may as well throw a 351 Ford into a Grand National or a Chevy 350 into a '69 Roadrunner if you're going to start disregarding the brands.
Thats how I see it! Keep Buicks Buicks, Fords Fords and so on. Anyone can swap a motor but taking the stock mill and making it something to reckon with is a real challenge that has many rewards if that is what you are seeking. No an SBB is not better than an LS but say you take that SBB, fuel inject it, push 350hp and make it a turn key low maintenance engine and thats damn impressive, even if Joe Chevrolet has an LS doing the same thing with 600hp
Thanks for finally posting something constructive. I take it this would be your rationale for using the Buick engines. Since the only engines ever used in this car are the 1.8L L-4, a somewhat larger but much heavier L-6 and the Rover version (Identical except the valve covers and intake) of the Buick 215, which btw they (Rover) bought from Buick, then you would only settle for the BOPR (215) as a higher power option because it does not cross manufacturers lines. THANK-YOU! This is what I was trying to get at. So by your own reasoning an LS would not be acceptable. I can respect that. What about the 300? Would it be? It shares the same architecture, interchangeable heads, but has an iron block, taller deck, and more common bellhousing (cheaper), can be stroked to 340-350 cu.in. and only weighs 60 lbs more than the 215. It too is a drop-in swap in the later bodied cars. Sort of like putting a 350 in an earlier Skylark. And it will achieve the 300+ hp status without much strain at all. Would you consider that an acceptable swap without crossing personal boundaries? What about the larger Rover engines? Same motor, just more bore and stroke. As far as using up the Buick engines? We've run the production numbers before and I don't think a few dozen engines more or less is going to hurt you, or even a few hundred if it ever came to that. I would see the blown 3800 as a very good choice. But the V6 Buick hasn't caught on for some reason. It's very popular though in the Triumph TR7 probably due to the kits by John's Cars in Texas. (Usually as a 231 though.) I would guess that the reason is that the displacement is so close to newer Rover motors and most people think a V8 just sounds better. That plus the 60*V6 is more compact and has seen enough development that many now think, correctly or not, that it is as good or better than the 3800. Headers are definitely an issue though. Incidentally, a 700r4 requires tunnel/floor modification. Not extensive but it is one more thing. T5s are extremely popular. <sbb for="" a="" more="" simple="" backyard="" guy="" that="" doesn't="" want="" to="" re-engineer="" <the="" whole="" car="" but="" wants="" something="" fun.="" is,="" if="" he="" can="" find="" <215-300-340="" these="" days="" and="" thousand="" or="" dollars="" spend="" on="" engine="" compared="" the="" other="" options="" isn't="" big="" deal. It's been proven many times over that the cost of the engine is much less of a factor than the cost of completing the conversion, so that argument doesn't hold up real well in these swaps. The usual scenario is someone who wants to use the free engine. If you can just buy the parts to do the swap it is well within reason to save thousands of dollars over what the free engine would cost, and much more if you hire the work. That money could reasonably be expected to be put into the engine itself. So those TA heads that are about to be released stateside are not at all out of reach. All those engines are still available without looking too hard, and Rover engines up to 4.5L or just shy of 300 cu.in. are everywhere. By the way, what planet are you guys living on where LS engines are so cheap to buy and build? They're still rather pricey around here. I'm seeing prices on ebay between 2700.00 and $12K. We got guys buying and selling SBB's for 2-300 bucks. That right there would pay for a set of real nice heads, among other things. Or EFI, or a crank trigger ignition, or a MegaSquirt controller, or roller rockers or whatever. But enough about that, I don't want to stifle what progress we've made with brand squabbles all over again, just wanted to point it out. There is definitely a price differential in the SBB's favor, especially if you can accept a good running used engine. How about that SBF, huh? Plenty of guys crossing brand lines dropping those in. And the V6 chevy too. I don't like it much myself but you have to admit that they run pretty good. You take the brand lines argument and push it a little and you end up with other Buick engines as well. This is how we ended up with the MG-Roadmaster project which is documented on this site in the BBB section. Since MG chose the smallest V8 engine Buick had made we decided to try one with the biggest. Lots of people are going to drive that car, and lots more are going to ride in it. But don't worry nobody else is planning to build one right away so I don't think we're going to suddenly dry up your precious source of big blocks. But if we do, TA can make more. As far as keeping your secrets to yourself, well go ahead if that's the way you are. Just keep away from me. Someone who can't give of them-self is all to likely to take from others too. JB</sbb>
I think I found your problem. You are obsessed with LS1's. Try searching for vortec instead of LS1 and you'll quickly realize that every GM truck since 1996 has run a version of that engine and that they're sitting in every junkyard for a whole range of prices and conditions. When you search LS1/2/3 you are looking for F/Y body engines which carry a premium. I don't get why you're so pissy about this anyway. You hate the idea of swapping a Gen3/4 into something it didn't originally come in but you're fighting over the right to swap a SBB into that same car even though it wasn't available to that car either. Seems like a silly thing to get worked up over. If you want to use it than go for it, nobody will stop you. Just don't go around talking like a tough guy when people prefer a different engine over that one. If all you want is everyone to follow your lead and agree with you than buy a Prius and move to San Fran. Otherwise realize that different people have different views when it comes to the best way to go about doing something. Personally I'm a fan of anything that isn't a carbed SBC since it's all I ever see latelly. Can't tell you how many people replaced perfectly good 265's, 283's, and even 327's with the generic 350's. If it were me I'd keep the 1.8 and have a fun little cruise to the beach car. How many people would actually see that car and say wow that's cool just because they never see those motors any more. It's got the different is special factor going for it and that's priceless. That's one reason the girlfriend is trying so hard to track down an old superbeetle. They're not that common around here and they're fun little cruiser cars.
I think if there was some Alum heads for the Buick 350 it would have been a more popular motor to use instead of a BBB or the Chevy motor that is available now. If you would take away the V8Buick website you would have a hard time finding parts for the 350. This right here makes the Chevy motor the more popular drop in. Especially if you was a younger person and just got this Lark with a 350 Buick in it and now you can't find parts. Call Summit Racing looking for a intake for a 350 Buick, they won't even know what you are talking about and they would probably steer you towards the Chevy motor drop in, heck they probably have them in stock. You take away this website and the 350 Buick is a dead issue as far as performance is concerned. At this point the Chevy motor would win... Unfortunately. Aluminum Heads made by Edelbrock would make a difference because then this part would be sold at Summit Racing. I would really rather see TA build some heads for the 350 as I would rather support them instead of Edelbrock. I just used Edelbrock as an example. My brother still tries to get me to use the 455 I do have and just forget the 350. But I like my 350 motor, it is different, and when I go to the track, I am always asked about my motor when I just smacked them around at the track. :3gears: Is the new Chevy motor better than my Buick motor? Probably, it has a lot of new technology, it better be. But I like my Buick 350 better, it has it's own unique sound.
There it is! There is a lot of looking for approval for an idea on this board. I wouldn't put anything but a Buick engine in a 72 and back Buick myself, but to each his own. As for the concept of never putting a different brand engine into a rig, I can't even begin to agree with that concept for me. Hot rodding all began with putting the best motor that you can find cheap into whatever you have. Might mean a used flathead Ford engine into your stripped down 1920 something dodge brothers or whatever. I would certainly put a nailhead into a model A or other car of that vintage. I wouldn't want a modern motor in it, but it's done every day and to each their own.
Well Gentlemen.......... I've been following this thread for several days now, enjoying the dialog and anguishing over it at the same time, and i keep coming back to a statement from a friend of mine who races a 410 cid 830 hp alcohol fired circle track car....."There will always be someone quicker and faster than you". So, if you're worried that some Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, GM, or riceburner is going to beat your buick, stop worrying, it's out there waiting for you at the local drag strip. Six years ago, the original 350 GS motor in my 72 GS trashed a wrist pin and the motor had to be rebuilt. My mechanic quoted me a price, with a cam and other oiling goodies, and he said "Steve, i can put in a modded SBC for half the price, but I know you wouldn't want that. You want the original buick motor back in it." And he was 100% right i wanted that buick motor back in it. And to add complexity, or character, to the decision, was the reality at the time, that in my garage was a buick 455 block, heads and intake. Which i later sold to pay for other mods to the rebuilt 350 and suspension. Crazy decision?? Maybe.....but, I don't care. I enjoy tuning that 350 and shifting that M22 through a 3.9 gear and that what works for me. Does it bother me that some LXXXXWHATEVER out there might be faster than my GS?? No.......because "There will always be someone quicker and faster than me".
Aluminum heads and a widely available single plane intake would make the sbb a strong powerplant option that is why I am sticking with it and trying to make the most out of what is currently available. Also I have to agree with how the Sbb 350 sounds, its almost like a v8 twist to the indisputable sound of a 90s gm 60*v6. Hard to explain what I am after but any of you guys who have driven 80's and 90s A-bodys will know what I am saying
I had a feeling it might be a little pointless to ask for support for this swap on this board, there are probably better places to ask that question like HAMB for instance, but I felt like I should at least give it a shot. I had no idea though that I'd run into such bias against Buick engines. Look, here's how it is guys, personally I'm pretty much locked into the 340 for as long as it holds up unless someone comes along and just offers me a great pile of money for my car. The big block is a group project so it isn't mine. My roadster has a 340 in it now because it seemed like the natural upgrade from the maxed out blown, intercooled, injected, crank triggered distributorless 215 that was in the car before. BTW, the 340 is set up like the 215 was, except for better parts. (That crack about keeping the 1.8 is just ignorant. There are plenty of purists, those cars are far from scarce, and the Buick 215 WAS A FACTORY MOTOR. So get over the fact that the car has a Buick engine already. Jeez.) If I was doing the conversion now from a clean slate I would probably use the general's new toy. Call it LS, LQ, Vortec, whatever. You can call it Midas for all I care, at this point I don't even need to know because I'm not building a car around it. Later, who knows, but not now. The BBB car was a toy and built to prove a point so it really doesn't even count in this context. But believe it or not, on forums like BritishV8 and MGExperience people look to me for answers and respect my opinion. I know some of you might scoff at that idea, but you don't know me and can be excused. It's a responsibility that I take seriously. I go to great trouble to give fair and well thought out opinions when called for. This is why the viability of the SBB is a concern. When a new enthusiast comes to the board seeking advice on engine selection some of us want to make sure they have the most relevant information available in order to make the most informed decision possible, rather than just saying, "Stick a 3.4 in it" or "Put a SBF in it" like some, usually with vested interests do. I am very familiar with exactly what it takes to swap practically every engine used into these cars. With the possible exception of your truck engine I am familiar with the cost of engines both crate and used, of the components needed to make them fit, the cost of those components, and of what is not available as well as about what it costs to make it or have it made. Incidentally, isn't it true that those truck engines use iron blocks? So they are not a 385 lb engine, but considerably heavier and therefore really not so well suited to this car. Guess this takes us back to the more expensive aluminum ones, doesn't it? In discussions with others knowledgeable about these matters, it's something of a mystery why the Buick V6 and the 300 are not more common. The V6 we can sort of understand but the 300 just doesn't make sense, especially in light of the ones that have been built. Apparently the engine just isn't glamorous enough. In terms of power output (308 typical dyno'd RWHP, carbed, nothing fancy, factory aluminum heads and intake), cost to buy, cost to build, cost to install, ease of install, balance, appearance, and just about every other parameter the engine is a clear winner. Power and weight equivalent to the SBF but no need to cut the crossmember and frame to install it, and it bolts right in with the factory 215 parts. Except the bellhousing which can be had for as little as $25 instead of $200. Oh, and a cheaper flywheel too. The swap can be done in a weekend. In fact, on paper the 300 looks so good that at equivalent HP ratings it should beat out any other engine (including the truck motor) when installation into the car is taken into account. So why aren't there more of them? The guys who own them are just as mystified. Sadly, you guys have not really been any help in solving this mystery. Some of you who were totally clueless just persisted in insisting that the LS was the be-all, do-all, end-all of engines. No help. Those who might have had some idea about what was going on it seems have simply sat in the background and kept quiet. Can't really comment on that, but again, no help. I'm sorry if some of you guys have envy problems because of the power/weight ratios we achieve with these cars using lower output engines but that's just the way it is. No, the cars aren't Buicks. Yes they use Buick engines. That isn't going to change so get over it. Your precious GM corporate engine has been installed, at much effort and expense and at a cost of about 5 times the average for a BOPR or 300 in 2 or 3 cars. Can't see that swap growing all that fast but more will be done. Possibly a few more 455s could be done once we start driving it. But the 300, possibly the very best of the best for this application, if I were to rely on the feedback from this board, I would decry as a truly bad idea, and only suitable for someone who wanted an OLD engine in his car. And clearly that is not the case. JB
Why are you acting like someone hates you? It wasn't a crack at all. I'd run the 1.8 if that's what the car came with. I have had many different types of cars and can actually apreciate them for what they are. A little roadster type car with a small engine in it would make for a nice cruising car on a nice sunny day. Why does it need to have a V8 in it if it's ultimate goal is to be fun in the sun? Until you experience and learn to appreciate the different cars for what they are you'll never know what you're missing. I personally love to bomb around in a little lightweight car after driving the big cars all the time. That's why we'll have the 73 or so Beetle with it's tiny gas sipping engine to go with the 73 Electra with it's throaty gas guzzling 455. Different flavors for the different moods is what makes life worth living.
Deep skirted block, 6 bolt mains, gerotor oil pump, symmetrical port cylinder heads, long curved intake runners, tall and thin intake ports on heads, 4 bolts per cylinder, roller cam, roller trunnion rockers, etc. I'm not suggesting parts interchange, just that virtually all of the design features of the Series II v6 are there in the LSx architecture. For what it's worth....I'd love to have a killer Buick 350 in an MGB. Aluminum heads sure would help keep excess weight off the front end though. Even then, it shouldn't be a deal breaker. Realistically, I'd probably go with a 4.6L Rover engine though. On that subject....do you know what the practical limit is for boring the 4.0/4.6 block?
Scott, in all honesty I'd go with the 300 instead. Experience has shown that the 60 lb weight penalty is not noticeable when driving the car, nor in the ride height. If, after the swap you feel the ride is soft you can very easily put heavier oil in the shocks to stiffen it up. The Rover has been taken to 5 liters, possibly someone has gone slightly higher. But a host of issues exist that disappear with the 300. Slipped liners, pulled threads, and unfavorable rod ratios top the list. Plus the 300 can be stroked using the 350 crank. Probably the biggest single issue with using this engine is the need for a hood bulge or scoop. Everything else is very straightforward. Do you have the car? If not, the rubber bumper models have already had the engine compartment mods to allow the use of the V8. Earlier cars need a bit more work but have the advantage of a lower ride for better handling. But there are ways around the ride height too. The 350 should be a very viable option but so far nobody has done one. It would require hand made headers and steering shaft mods. Moving the firewall cone downwards to clear the exhaust and possibly lowering the rack if it's desired to get the engine down lower. The first is a common mod, the second not quite so common but not particularly difficult. However most people don't want to mess with the steering geometry. Possibly custom engine mounts. The ones we designed for the 340 and BBB swap work very well. An early Rover oil filter mount will angle the filter forward for clearance. Cooling is an issue with the larger engines. I have developed a wide frame section for the front end that accommodates a very large stock generic aluminum radiator from Summit that runs about $150. (The radiator that is, I haven't priced out a frame kit). The extra weight of the iron heads on the 350 would make it pretty comparable to the BBB car with TA heads and Poston intake. On that car we installed air bags in place of the stock coil springs with favorable results, plus being able to raise the car for driveway clearance is a plus. The headers should go through the inner fenders into the rear of the wheel wells. This has been proven to lower under hood temps considerably. The engine will sit higher than the 300 so a scoop is unavoidable, but we're seeing some pretty tasteful jobs on those, and I'm pretty sure Dave Craddock sells a fiberglass hood that will do the trick. If you want more info I can direct you to a couple of links. JB
I think in the end, if you want a true assessment of each engine you should also do a cost analysis of each potential configuration you're looking at. Cost does have impact on the decision making, at least for me. One of the reasons I like the LS motors is also due to emissions standards where I live here in Indiana. 76 and up cars are still emission tested, and there's a lot of hotrod material between 76 and 82, especially Corvettes, 73-77 A-Bodies, F-Bodies and X-Bodies. Unfortunately anything you do to these cars on a traditional performance standpoint contributes to their immediate failure on the emissions test. Using an LS series motor with it's OBD-II system can pretty much ensure you pass, which breathes life into a lot of cars that would otherwise be left to rot or sold to other locations where they aren't subject to emissions testing. I'd love to put a SBB in a 77 Regal or 77 Nova, but getting it to pass emissions and perform to my standards would probably be an exercise in patience I know I'd fail.
I wouldn't mind putting a V6 Buick Turbo motor in my 70 skylark 4 door. This would have better power and might get a lot better gas mileage than the 350 that is in it now. I am for putting different motors in different cars. I just think this is all part of Hot Rodding. How about putting a 472 Caddy motor in your Buick? Would anyone go for this? If you put the Chevy motor and Buick motor side by side the technology of the Chevy motor is going to make this the better motor. But if you want the old school look in your car then it is going to be the 350 Buick motor. Lots of torque, can look totally bone stock and just beat everyone. Great for a small car with the light weight of the motor. I guess an answer you can ask yourself is. Will the Chevy motor still be around in 40 years as the Buick motor has. By then the Buick motor will be 80 years old...Which one will last longer? Is the Chevy motor really made that good?
One thing no one has touched on is TORQUE. The SBB will make more torque at a given build level than the LS. Heck, the earlier SBC makes more torque at a lower rpm than the LS. For example, a new 5.3 vs an earlier 5.0 or 5.7. In trucks the 5.3 is a sweet motor when you rev it but it doesn't have the grunt needed in a truck compared to even the earlier SBCs....and they weren't exactly known for their torque.
