I was responding to the original question only. Start a thread asking "what is your favorite engine" and the LS probably wouldn't win that.
You don't have to agree, but clearly you can't come up with any reason the SBB is better than the LS engine either, otherwise you wouldn't be asking.
Loyalty is in what you enjoy, buy and support. It doesn't have anything to do with admitting the facts. If this engine had come out with a Buick name on it, no one on here would be talking about anything else. It is a corporate engine, it's new, it builds power, lasts and gets good economy for what it does. Now the only reason that I would want one is if I bought a new chevy truck, which I'm not going to, but just because I would rather have a little old 300 in a 65 Skylark than the newest GM engine doesn't mean that I don't recognize it for what it is. Even if it wasn't for all the electronics that it takes to run a modern engine, I like the old stuff better. Doesn't mean that I don't know what they've accomplished with the new generation. Look at the new series of engines this way. Tons of power, good emissions and good economy mean that the internal combustion engine is probably not going to be replaced by the newest "green" technology in our lifetime. This engine is good news for those of us who want to run old engines too! The new "green" technology would certainly have an easier time showing that a 1950, 1960 or 1970 technology engine should be replaced by an engine that runs on some sort of new fuel.
I agree with you John about the solidarity on this Buick site. However I look at the LS engine as more of a corporate engine than a Chevy. I also agree that the LS is a fine engine. Probably the biggest attraction is the streetability along with the performance. It hasn't proven to be better than either SBB or BBB as there are a lot more of those running around with over 200,000 miles than there are LS engines. And trust me repairs to an LS is going to cost a lot more than they will for the Buicks. I know I won't be seen putting an LS in any of my Buicks except for maybe my Rainier. Bob H.
Whoa, pump your brakes a little there hoss, dont want your blood pressure to get too high. Look at your original query:"SBB BETTER than an LS?" You didnt ask "What do you guys prefer to have in your cars??" So the whole Buick engine bashing thing you say everyone is doing is not bashing on anything, just making comparisons between the two engines. And if you do the side by side comparison, numbers wise (and numbers dont lie) the LS will win in almost every category (price to get x amount of power, availability, etc). That doesnt mean that all these guys have or would prefer to have an LS in there cars, it means they recognize the fact that the LS platform engines make cheaper, more efficient power. Its not because the buicks are inherently inferior, its the fact that advancments in technology have made a big difference in engine attributes and output in the last 30-40 years. Its the same reason we arent going into outer space in saturn 5 rockets anymore, ADVANCEMENT. But what we choose to have in our cars around here is predominantly BUICK power. Put up a poll if you dont believe me, I'd bet buick engines outnumber LS's 20 to 1 around here(at least). I personally think the LS is an awesome platform and a good option for performance enthusiasts, but guess what, instead I just spent over $9,000 on building A BUICK MOTOR. Why would I do that when I could get the same power out of an LS for 1/3 the money you ask??? Because of the mystique and personality that I (and many others around here) feel this big old hunks of iron have. So before you call everybody closet chebby guys (thats insulting:laugh: ) realize they were comparing the numbers, not arguing that we should all ditch our buick mills for LS's.:beer I'll get down off of my soapbox now....:bla:
SilverBuick, Shawn, David i agree with yall 100%:laugh: And for the record its spelled Chevy! I will take anything American, anyday of the week! Peace:beer
I think this somehow got off track or mis understood original question was which was one better..pretty vague.. but stock for stock ls1 is better in respects to rollercam, better fireorder and fuel injection from the get go...and they're usualy mated to a transmission that also helps with better mpgs.. now comparing a fuel injectected buick 350 to a ls1...or a stock buick 350 to a carbed lsx then it'll be close..pretty much just personal preference money wise...its always going to be cheaper with waht you have to start with and what's laying around.. hell if I had the $$$ i'd buy one of my fav cars from each make and slapp in a sbb :TU: 70 torino fastback, 71 demon, would all have sbbs torino with a buick 370/aa80e and demon with a ta perf al headed s/c 300 w/ t-56
40 years of engineering and learning make a pretty big gap between the two engines. Heck, I was a LOT better 40 years ago.....:beer
truthly it really isnt 40 years of difference ...ls1 is just a glorified pushrod engine its like all the carbed cengines are just "carbs while the ls1 is just an early 90s TBI.. the ls1 doesnt even have a soch/doch heads or dvvt or gdi injection( these things are the 40 years of tech advance
Maybe I should restate the question. Hmm... OK, let's say you have a small car, finished weight of 2300-2500 lbs depending on engine, interior and such after the conversion, down to about 2000 stripped to race prep with one of the lightest engines. At the heavy end, a big block of some sort and street trim, though mind you there have only ever been a couple of those. OK, you are trying to decide on an engine. You can go turbo 4, V6, V8, and even Jag V12's have been done a time or two though one of those was later re-converted to a V8. The practical horsepower target for these cars lies in the 200-300hp range or about 12-8 pounds per horsepower. This is about like 300-425 hp in a Buick GS. The real performance dividing line is at about 300 and the cars above that are sort of in their own category. Except for one particular BBC drag race car the most horsepower developed by an engine in one of these cars to date would be approaching 500 but that has yet to be documented. This would be equivalent to about 680 hp in a GS. Something like 480 is claimed by one very modified car with an LS-type (maybe LQ, I'll not pretend to be expert about this). One BBB has been done. One 340 SBB has been done but not yet complete. Something probably less than a dozen 300 SBBs have been done but that number could be higher as these particular cars are sort of in stealth mode. Literally hundreds of 215s and Rovers have been done, very likely over a thousand by now. A couple dozen SBFs have been done, and probably over a hundred GM 60 degree V6s. A few Buick V6s have been done also as well as a few chebby V6s. You are trying to decide. If you go with the 215/Rover (referred to as BOPR), the 300, or now the GM V6, headers, motor mounts, and everything else you might need to do a swap is available off the shelf at reasonable prices. The others are a little more difficult in one way or another, most notably headers and motor mounts. The 340 can use the BOPR headers but mounts are a little different. Nobody has done a 350 SBB yet, and the BBB requires TA-SE heads for exhaust clearance. The car is muscle car era but was never considered a muscle car. It is however considered something of a classic in at least some circles. It is British and is a sports car. It was available from the factory for a limited time with the 215 which gives credibility to the SBB swap, and until about 8 or 10 years back these were almost the only engines used. Use of the car can be anything you would use any other car for, from show only to daily driver to dedicated racer to beater. Your choice. You have an average of maybe 5 grand or less in a car that is solid and in good condition with reasonable paint. Some prime examples have been valued as high as over $100,000.00 but those are very exceptional cars. The average well done conversion is more likely to be in the 20-30K range or perhaps a bit less. So the question is, what would persuade you that the right choice for your car would be the Buick engine? I don't have to justify my choice, if actions speak louder than words, the fact that I've done the ONLY BBB conversion and the ONLY 340 SBB conversion speaks eloquently enough. I'm not asking anyone to defend the LS. I know it's a dandy engine. If you looked back you'd see that I was asking for ammunition. In other words, maybe something I haven't already mentioned. It doesn't have to be max horsepower, most guys won't want that anyway. But how does the torque compare? Do we have an edge? Is there an edge down low in the power envelope? Things like that. Is there a particular build that would make for a really sweet ride at a popular power level? I'm sure I haven't though of everything and was just sort of hoping for some fresh ideas. At present the prevailing opinion seems to be that Ford power is the choice for 300+ and either BOPR or GM V6 from 200-300 and the Buick edge is slipping. The new LS conversions are one of a kind so far but can be expected to follow the same path as the V6 and SBF. There is a place for all of them. But why would YOU choose the SBB? JB
You guys are funny. So far I have seen alot of complaining and whining without a single point where the SBB is better than the Gen3/4. If you're only gripe is that it isn't a Buick motor than realize that the last Buick motor other than the 3.8 was made about 30 years ago and that's the end of the story. I'm sure the same people who are swearing by the SBB also have a non buick powered car that they use in the winter or on a daily basis to and from work. Very few people put tons of mileage on the old motors nowadays just because they're too expensive to properly fix and maintain. The newer motors are just easier to deal with on a regular basis. Loyalty has nothing to do with anything. You can admit something is better without it being a huge issue. By the loyalty logic any aftermarket parts are off limits because it's not being loyal to the parts that Buick developed. Loyalty above honesty is the reason why people overpay for lesser product. I love my 455. I hope that when I swap my intake I find that the internals are at least close to where they should be and that I don't have horribly misaligned bores and passages. It's just part of the Buick game though to deal with that little issue.
well then it'd go with buick 350 stroked to a 370 :-D (honda 6.3 or 6.4 rods with fordged lc2 pistions) or 300 with TA al heads if funding was well off
Ahh, so your referencing the MGB!!(Yes I followed that thread closely, and yes, it was frickin awesome!!) As far as your last response all I can say is this; it's your car, and your choice. There's a few pretty damn sweet LS powered Buicks around here and I commend them for what theyve done; take a beautiful car, put a stout engine in it, and enjoy the heck outta it. Many MGB purists would probably say what you did was an abomination, but most of us would say it was EPIC!! Bottom line is as long as there are options to our hobby, many of us will have to agree to disagree and end it there. Is the LS engine a good performance platform??...Hell yes, and if you can honestly say it isnt then give some solid reasons why. Is the SBB a solid performance platform?? Yep, I've ridden in some pretty damn fast ones and can say for sure you can definitely make them haul some serious balls. So the end result is it doesnt matter what you choose, some will love it and some will hate it, but it beats the ever loving snot outta all of us putting around in prius' because the stuffy marxist bureacrats in washington say we should have to. Long live V8Buick, long live torque!! And Ralph Sr., sorry about the spelling, old habits die hard! Once again I'll get off my soapbox.(Man this thing is getting a workout....) I need a(nother) beer....:beers2:
That's an old saying that many won't understand nowadays. Soapboxes have been made of cheap cardboard for like 20 years now so it's going to be hard to stand on one without falling:moonu:
Whats funny is I'm only 27 years old!!!:laugh: (Im not really sure Ive ever seen a legitimate old school "soapbox", I just like the phrase) With those flimsy card board boxes, I guess I'll have to switch to milk crates!!:bla:
Frankly, the LSx engine design is more Buick than it is Chevy. That 'clean sheet of paper' build looks all the world like a v8 version of the Buick 3800 Series II engine. If you were asking us which older GM 350 we preferred, I think you'd get quite a good response for the SBB engine. Personally, I love the fact that it's so light, dist. is up front, has a deep skirted block and is very strong, and makes the most TQ of the older GM 350's. As has been said already though....comparing it stock vs. stock to the new LSx engines really is bringing a knife to a gun fight. There have been several high boost twin turbo LSx engines lately making 1200-1300+HP with STOCK BOTTOM ends. And that has been with the little 4.8L!! We're talking over 4hp/cu and counting. Stock crank, rods, bolts, etc. If that doesn't prove just how strong the LSx family of engines is, I don't know what will.
Even if the question was preference between LS and Buick I think the response would be different. Knowing that another engine is a better design doesn't always make it preferable. There's a lot to be said for style and appropriate for the car. Efficient and powerful are great, but not the only thing to consider when you are choosing what engine you want. I would much rather have an old Buick engine in a classic buick myself.
The Buick is better...There, I said it. All we really need is a set of Aluminum Heads. Piss on Chevy. 11.81 With stock parts for the most part. It's 40 years old.:blast:
I think this is so true. The Buick V8 represents an era. It has a unique sound and feel that no other engine has. You don't have to do a whole lot of explaining for people to realize that technology does not make for character. First I have to say, you can be a fan of the Buick V8 and still be objective. If you were going into that fight with a 455, I could see it. You have heads and stroker kits available to go toe to toe if you can afford it. With the small block Buick, your biggest challenge is the heads and intake choices. There just simply isn't any options where that motor can flow anywhere near as much air as the 300+CFM of a stock set of L92 factory cylinder heads. We won't even mention that you can get those same stock L92 cylinder heads CNC ported to over 350+CFM for $900. So, no matter how much money you spend on a small block Buick, it just isn't going to happen. Now if you want to talk big block Buick, I think Jim has posted some dyno comparisons that are very compelling dollar for dollar when you get up to the 800 to 900 horsepower N/A arena. But, even the venerable big block Buick has too many block shortcomings when you eclipse 1,000HP. As long as you are bench racing you can stick to your guns, it is not like you have to prove it, right? Just be careful, you could end up being that old-timer who corners you at the barbecue who is telling you the Ford flathead was that last great engine.
