No, the school is in tenn. and business in cali. Joe's wife is a wonderful lady! She had Joe's top instructors stay and do the school. $3500 for beginners and it could take. up to 3 weeks to train you. More advanced people take a simple porting test and it starts off at $2500 on down depending on how much you know. That includes learning wetflow, flowbench, and everything else in between .
For the people following my thread here, please fell free to post your engine combos. Here is my combo I'm saving money for- 1970-76 455 Block, having Automotive Machine and Performance do my machine work and a couple other things if I can't do it, my connecting Rods of choice is custom made Oliver Parabolic beam rods, A Winbreg billet crank, J.E. pistons, a custom made billet cam by either Cam Motion or LSM Systems Engineering, block 3/4 filled, all the oil mods and a Peterson external oil pump(belt driven ., the heads is a toss up rt now, I was thinking about buying a virgin set of TA performance Stage 2 heads and sending them to either Darin M. or Curtis boggs to see what they can do. Now the intake, I'm sorry guys but Marcell's Manifolds is very hard to beat.. I'll be stuffing this in a 1979 Riviera. done by Beckle or it might be Bickle chassis shop to be done to a 25.1 cert cage. Yes this is my wish list andin hopes to make near of a 1000 ponies on motor alone in GMs cast iron block. That's my goal. yes I know its a tall oder for a cast block but you gotta wish me luck because I wanna see a cat block make it there own its own without power adders! When this engine does it, I'll run her till she cracks! And hope to God the engine destroy every part in it. At that point I'm going to a Tomahawk block and I'll turn up the wick and either go twin turbos by Mike M. or a bunch of Nitrous like the pro's do and see where this Luxury. boat takes me.... Now start talking folks, there is nothing wrong about dream machines or real built cars.
A big Thank you. Are you gonna be one of the schools instructors ? If so, hope to meet when I attend their .
[video=youtube;biN1iA0lhGE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biN1iA0lhGE&list=PL7700515A283AD928&feature=player_detailpage[/video] Here you go, someone was motivated enough to build a CNC for head porting. I know the machinist's are going to snicker a bit at some aspects of the vid, but not bad for a DIY. It isn't 8000lbs and other than tool breakage doesn't look that expensive to keep maintained. Definitely could benefit from some rigidity. If you watch the auctions, there can be some low prices on CNC mills, but then have fun trying to move a 5-20,000lb machine! Smaller units are starting to pop up in garages here and there. I've seen older Fanuc robots at near giveaway price. Probably easier for a skilled hobbyist to program, and they don't lose much accuracy until their reach is fully extended....
Cool video. Good eye candy for a cyl. head enthusiast. Please don't take this as negativity, I'm just seeing from a different perspective... I've seen the Rottler and Centroid vids and other than convenient programming, I don't see any advantage over using a production type CNC machine. The Rottlers' look fairly sturdy (with boxed ways), and that seems like the only advantage over entry level Haas type machines (with linear bearing ways), like the kind commonly seen on TV carving out chopper parts. No offense to any machinery, they all have their purposes. These two stick out for me as examples of clever marketing. I'm not a big fan of milling with the rotary table "live". It wears the ring gear on the rotary in the common spots from the motors trying to fight any cutting forces. Doesn't make sense to try to save time by not using the brake on the rotary, on a machine that seems to have slow tool changes and rapids. I could be wrong, though. If this is a garage-toy or part-time business dream, and one wants to really make this happen, I would seriously think about getting a second hand Mori-Seiki or Okuma, and hire a machinist to get you started on the G-code and protocols of using these things. You'll have 10x the machine, for 10-15% of the cost. I missed yesterday, on a auction I only check monthly, a 10x48 Lagun CNC 40 taper knee mill. It was for some reason not operational, but for the $255.00 it sold for, I might have taken that risk...
I wonder if anyone can clarify the lift discrepancy on the flow chart, p.138 of the "Engine Airflow" book by Bettes? Looking for GmcG's thoughts here, is that 600hp potential by .400", or .300" lift? BTW, that's a really nicely flowing port! :Brow:
Totally agree! The ease of programming is THE benefit. You could do that with a small CMM, and send it to the mill. Nearly all but ancient CNC's have some "self programming" features. Renishaw probes can be fitted to nearly anything. I do think it's misleading to suggest that one could walk away from any machine worry free with the potential costs (and down time) resulting from a slight mishap, whether tooling or machine related. You just wouldn't do it. Besides, it would be fun to watch and you might be looking for trouble spots anywhere in the process. I shouldn't have thrown the "Lagun" example in there, that was for the extremely budget minded. That would be a quick set-up prototyper, though. I guess what I'm seeing in my state are 6-10 year old machines, that start out much higher in price than the Rottler or Centroid, being auctioned for as low as 10-15% of the cost of, due to amortization schedules and the pressure of shutting down a shop. Obviously moving costs are high (and risky) and you have to act fast. 6-10 year old higher end machines are hardly worn out junkers. One would need to look into what they were used to make and so-on. Porting heads is not pushing a machine by any stretch. I guess this is a lengthy way of saying, "It depends on what you can afford to spend". The distinction I'm making with this is simply over the cost to enter this environment. Even if I could drop 500k into developing a market for ported heads, I wouldn't go that route with regard to machinery anyways. I don't need the benefit of automatic self programming. I also wouldn't be trying to market ported heads.... I think the point of the Centroid's and Rottler's is to get a non-CNC machinist past the fear and learning curve going from manual equipment. My apologies for the derailment of the thread...
I also have to point out that if a Centroid is not making chips, it is on down time. Believe me, when I first saw those vids, those were on my wish list. The reality is I would have to create a name, and a market to justify the purchase. It makes sense for a "Boggs" or "Chapman" to have one because they get significantly more for their custom heads. It will pay for itself, even self probing for one set at a time, as long as they are busy. I expect they are. Sorry, rant over...
I still agree with your post. I bet they are happy, who wouldn't be? I think the devil is in the details here...I'm only guessing that the researched shops may not have started with CNC's, or a well experienced in CNC staff. My comments weren't negating anyone's choice in machines. The idea behind not using the CNC to probe the part is that this can be done by someone else while the machine is turning the spindle, and filling dumpsters full of chips. It will always make more $$ that way. 1. If you are already a CNC machinist, none of this is any big deal. You can program most CNC's to do the above anyways. It's only time consuming the for very first set-up of it's type. You wouldn't walk away from the first couple of set ups, until you've proven out your process, with any machine. I should have been more clear on that when I typed it. Once proven, one guy can set up several machines at once while the tools on the other machines are running. Did this for years. I'm by far not the best machinist. 2. Auto Rebuilders and CNC shops are very unfamiliar with each other's business, and the way they profit. It takes years to be good at either, and it's hard to cross train people. They are worlds apart. They don't have to be. Lots of myths on both sides. I'm only trying to open up possibilities to the person that thinks they can't get into this without Rottler or Centroid type capital. My intentions were to just be informative to the thread, that's all. Hopefully this is still in line with Gary's Information on Porting Cylinder Heads thread.
I wasn't neg' ing on anything in your posts. I just don't think they are that far ahead, enough to justify the price. I'm sure I can find a better programmer to do that and pay them only once... Even from shop to shop there are drastically different technologies regarding CNC. Keeps consultants busy. Very competitive. The tools are used to supply the marketplace. Most companies don't utilize the technology of even yesterday, let alone today, or tomorrow. Technology doesn't usually drive the sales force, right? I came across the "home built head porter" while searching info for a neighbor who wants to build a gantry style CNC router, mostly for plastics and wood. I just happened to save it into my Youtube acct. To me, it looks like a slightly beefed up version of the wood/plastic routers out there. I'm impressed with concept and that someone did it. The machine and programming could use improvement, but hey... huge respect to the guy that made it happen! Can you imagine the lost art of the die grinder if these become commonplace? No more carpal tunnel. We'll be 3D printing up "Stepford Wives" (or temporary girlfriends) soon. There's a ton of info on the subject in general. He sent me a vid of a different machine cutting aluminum. I had to explain to him that the person that shot the vid REALLY knows what they are doing. The vid doesn't show a lifetime of experience or a learning curve of broken machine parts. I don't think he believes me that a novice will have to learn (not by book) how to manage things like sfm or chip load, or when you can or should climb cut. His wallet will find out quickly...if he ever builds it. What does that cost? Good Q. What is your machine building skill level and what is your time worth? I bet it could be done for $1500 with some scrounging. Those things use stepper motors out of printers (the small DIY CNC's) and linear rails surplused here or from China. Even some free programming tools are available. Non-machinists/weldors use aluminum extrusions and flat stock as the frames. There are different duty levels of these components already in other fields. The nerds are going to take us over... That's why I referred to Rosie and the Jetson's cooker serving us. :shock: or serving "us"... If interested, I could PM a couple of links to better design elements for cutting metal.
Olds builder Bill Trovato, (amongst others) uses a Renishaw probe in an 'ol Cincinatti mill. I'm not sure of his full capability, though. Oh well, back to welding and hammering...
Could Devon Da Wildcat please post something to get Gary revved up. This thread has gone on way to civilly. HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHh...Nawwwww. Just kidding. Good info im liking it ..Except for page 3, and 4 which i have no idear what the hell your talking about.
Ok folks, I'm going to throw a wrench in your basket for a second. Remember I suggested a Doppler system! Now, think about that for a second, why would I want to wait for 15 to 45 minutes for a machine to Probe my port when a Doppler can do it with in seconds! The same Doppler can study ports as they doing wet- dry flowbench work. Now could this work? Why not? Doppler's are used to see velocities in every aspect, wet or dry. they see low and high areas of wind and fluids and both together. The Doppler even figures out shapes very accurately too. Now for the 600hp @ .400 -.600 lift, please explain. by the way Harold. Bettes redid his Engine Airflow book. Check it out on Car Tech . com I made a. mistake the 1000 hp smb chevy, its a 600hp for around $3000.00 and it does explain what. factory parts to use as. a long aftermarket parts too. Nw back to the cnc work, that's why the people that are specializing in making heads are using Computational Fluid. Dynamics or for short (CFD) and are accelerating for faster then people using cnc machines. Its cheaper to redesign and have. a 3 Dimensional. print out then adjust what you have to have then have it casted.. CNC machines cost a ton of money. but casting is w ay cheaper tohen having to by a such machine. Here is my point, Darin Morgan is working with Profiler performance. on the casting part only but Darin is designing his on heads and as cast his heads or flowin better then Darts Big Chiefs heads. Darin made this heads to have the same valvetrain parts as Darts big chiefs. so no specialized valvetrain is required ! Curtis is taking heads and reconfiguring the ports to better suit your engine. Now if you don't have the money to buy ne w heads but think its cheaper for Curtis to reconfigure your heads. Its not, unless there is no head out there that suits you! For the CNC machines it self, I can not tell you which is cheaper! I'm sorry for the big names again but you can learn a lot by reading this folks websites and on enginebuilder.com too.
Any and all porting including CNC porting, hand porting, or the combination of both. But this where I must say something, CNC porting is usually for a certain engine, not for every engine. every engine is different and requires a certain design. That why cnc porting cost so much when they have probe your head, sonic test to figure out thickness of the port and so on. now if they already have this information your in luck. I did a simple Google search on Buick Billet cylinder heads and was surprised that their is a number of them out there. How do they flow and so on? I couldn't tell you because I only asked for "Buick Billet Cylinder head images ". See this thread is becoming very informational that why I wanted this out there.
First off, yes it is in line with this thread, secondly, I am one of the cross people here, meaning- I have Experience in CNC machine work just not not in doing cylinder heads! I ran A cnc machine to cut small tear drop aluminium pieces that the machine cut specific sized holes in it for. GM cars that have both air condition lines running next to each other and I also have three years of auto machining school behind me let alone one year actually in a real world machine shop not in a class setting ! My problem was trying to figure out the X,Y,Z, AND OTHER AXIS . now if you could have two computers communicate and eliminate the guessing part then hell ya. What I mean by communicating is this, have your cylinder head mapped in CFD then figure out what's best then hit enter to the CNC to get you finished product! That would save a poo load of money.
I know this, what I was saying is Greg still has the record and he is a big name among Buick lovers, For Jim W. he is earning a hell of a reputation and getting a well known name too. it's like A.M. and P. They are well known too. Thank for correcting me though.
Believe me, when either of this two do any head they go to Computational Fluid Dynamics software on their. computer first to do half their work in seconds, then they start their programming on the CNC Machine. I agree with you on high dollar machine, it w ould not justify to buy one if you are only a very small fish in a ocean! But I do plan on checking out the Computational Fluid Dynamics software that the big name people use, if it is cheap enough I think it would benefit any one.
I feel confused from some previous posts, therefore for clarity... CFD is not cheap. It can cost as much as a CNC machine. It's used to replace the flowbench during the on and off to validate testing. Not for the DIY guy. CNC's are used to quickly replicate a proven port, rather than 40+hours of hand grinding. Not do R&D on (you could still carve out a flow box if your really good, have a program in, and the 'chine can sit idle in the meantime or switch back to another job). Possibly DIY, depending on your wallet. You can program your CNC from anything that shows dimensions, ie., a blueprint, or CMM readout of a port mold. I've not used CFD, but I imagine it has some dimensional properties to it. You can use a CNC to scan, but the programming isn't commonplace. I've not used Doppler, but it is as slow as F*** on the weather channel on my PC. I didn't mean to muddy up the thread with the CNC gobbledy-gook. After working in both environments, my opinion still stands that there are very few cross trained guys that are absolute experts at both. I think that person would be formidable in the performance industry. No offense to anyone intended. GmcG, as far as my question on the Bettes' book, I was looking for your input on a very well done BBC port. The lift data was confusing me at first. Look at it, all of the data, and please give me your interpretation. I wonder who did that port anyways?:moonu:ou: Dawildcat, Hotrodrivi, Lets keep this going, shall we?
