Information on porting cylinder heads

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by gmcgruther, Oct 3, 2014.

  1. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    Believe it or not, Airflow Research was the first to pioneer the wet flow but not with ultraviolet light and fluorescent dye! That was the work of Lloyd Creek and Joe mondello! Both of those guys are very smart. I want to attend Mondello porting school to get a good start on repeatability.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
  2. TORQUED455

    TORQUED455 Well-Known Member

    FYI, Joe Mondello passed away back in 2011...
     
  3. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    The Small block chevy was a .030 over 400. The block casting was ahigh nickel 509 casting. we had the miladon 4 bolt splay system. The stroker kit was a 421 stroker by Eagle. J.E. 14:5.1Pistons, H beam rods , Eagles strongest forged crank before the billet crank. Dart Pro 1s (old ones) before the platnuim series.) Ported to the max, with a lunati .650 plus lift solid roller cam, GM Bowtie single plane high rise, port matched to the heads and a under carbed carb, 1050 dominator. The numbers come in under 750 by two horsepower, but on the spray, dodle cross 325 setting, it came to 1025horsepower or just shy of it. that engine lasted 7 years without being totally disassembled. I also did a stroked out 350 to a 383 that was just as powerful but used Brodix X11 heads and matching intake. The cam I have no clue but it was north of .675 lift with a Prosystems redone holley 950 cfm to well past 1100 cfm. It was in a mustang that went 10.60's on the motor at half track lift. The throttle stuck open so he had to shut it down. My mustang had a 10:5.1 cast pistons with ford motorsports crank and rods. (Cast) with a set of 1968302 ported and valves inlarged to 2.02 int. and 1.60 exh. with a non ported first gen victory jr. intake and a holley 750. That car went 12:70s on bs tires. I only like building the engines and doing the heads, I leave the chassis to the owner.
     
  4. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    Mondello porting school is still up and running in Memphis,Tenn. so is his other business in California . The wife said she is keeping his wises going...
     
  5. TORQUED455

    TORQUED455 Well-Known Member

    I know. You used him in present tense is all. RIP.
     
  6. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    Thank you for correcting me, I'm not the best in english grammer as you can tell :(
     
  7. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    I would have a tough time agreeing with that. To me the only safe head work without a flow bench is a simple clean up or the ports.... Once you start removing material you need to know what you are doing or you can kill the performance of the head easily.
     
  8. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    GmcG, thanks for sharing your combo's.
    I wasn't intending to be disrespectful, but if it came across that way, I apologize. It was a simple challenge to you.
    I can be a bit direct and you have to remember that things like tone and inflection rarely come across the internet accurately.
    It makes sense in my head as I say it.
    I'm a good "motor builder", but not the best typer...

    If I have any note of hostility, it's that I can tell that many of the board members that contribute here have read the same books as you or I, and also have 20-30 experience incorporating those practices in the real world.
    Just like myself.
    I try to steer folks the right way without giving away what might be my only competitive edge, in my area. It's very difficult to feed a family with porting heads. Most of us consider it a hobby instead. The numbers just don't add up.

    There's also guys here that have only done a few sets of heads, but are smart and driven. They are showing #'s and flow potential to rival the biggest names in the biz.

    Just like for some reason, I rub you the wrong way, you may rub others wrong. It's just how people communicate.

    I'm encouraging you to continue learning, and doing.
    I don't quite understand your Doppler theory, but I want to see it. Build it. Get to work.
    Go beyond what people accept as the limit, and you'll earn a name for yourself.
    :beer
     
  9. HotRodRivi

    HotRodRivi Tomahawks sighted overseas

    "I would have a tough time agreeing with that. To me the only safe head work without a flow bench is a simple clean up or the ports.... Once you start removing material you need to know what you are doing or you can kill the performance of the head easily."^^SEAN Buick

    That I would call the playing it safe approach. Nothing wrong with that. But that takes the fun out of it. Nothing like the learning exp of screwing up your own car and having to go back and make it right..
     
  10. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    They have a handy feature where you press the "quote" button and then you do not have to write the persons name beside the quote.....

    The problem is that most well intentioned home head porters never know if the work they did actually helped or hurt because they do not do before and after flow testing... It is pretty easy to lose mid lift flow chasing high lift numbers...

    I am all for encouraging people to work on thier stuff but it would be irresponsible for me to say "sure just dig in and port the heads" to someone without experience, access to a flow bench etc...

    That being said every pro head porter had to start somewhere, and there will be some damaged heads along the way...
     
  11. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    HTML:
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fusers.erols.com%2Fsrweiss%2Ftablehdc.htm&ei=3T09VK_xLdD2yQSHxoH4BQ&usg=AFQjCNE1V8hXjippfDYvtBePX5gF3Kj4oA&bvm=bv.77161500,d.aWw&cad=rja
    I can't post this chart, its a mile long.
    I occasionally use this to gauge my work if I'm unfamiliar with a casting. It would be nice if more of the Nailhead folks here put up there work, just to show what's possible. I do recognize at least one board member on that page.
    The bench will steer you in. It's less about chasing CFM's, more about where your air speeds are at. It kind of just falls into place from there.

    Dart pro 1 heads were mentioned. From the above database, it looks very challenging to get enough air through @ .675" or so lift to make 750hp.
    I was hoping for more details than "ported to the max". If those were home ported, that's one hell of an effort! Even more so on Brodix 11x on a 4" bore.
    If those were pro ported heads, I would say find a way to study them, there's a lifetime of learnin' in there...more than what you'll read on a forum.

    I have a pretty good idea of what has to be done to those, but I think the board could benefit from what it took to get to that power level, even if sbc. That's a good 100hp more than what most get, let alone live for 7 years w/o full teardowns. Esp. with a 509 block. Share your voodoo please :Smarty:.

    I also think it might be beneficial in a head porting thread to describe what corrective machine work was done to be able to bolt this beast together. At that power level it isn't a simple bolt together deal, compromises are made. More machinery than a typical parts store shop uses, typically. If you don't agree, a PM or new thread please, even a link to a different forum.
    Not much else just bolts together at that level, esp. Buicks. Speaking for myself, sometimes I find it more interesting what has to be done besides the porting to make them this wild.
    :3gears:
     
  12. 66gsconv

    66gsconv nailhead apprentice

    8ad-f85, If your talking about pts flowbench forum and someone working on nailheads as a hobby that would be me. I never talk about them in this section mainly because its the " 455 race" section. PTS is great for someone like me that does this work mainly as a hobby, although I do have a few sets of heads floating around out there. A lot of the guys on the pts forum have 30 or 40 years at porting and building, very friendly bunch. And you will find guys working on anything from a nailhead or 383 mopar to pro stock heads. As for the nailhead I have always said if you want to be a head porter you need to start with a nailhead, it will make you read and try stuff and read and try more. I will say when I hit a wall with them I was told to try flow balls and once I figured out what the flow balls were telling me I started making more gains. More gains on a nailhead is not much compared to aftermarket heads. Without throwing out a whole lot of numbers I can say that I have my test head flowing around
    .500-231
    .600-243
    .700-253
    My fps is between 350- 365 at 28" of water. seemed to smooth out the turbulence. I think there is a lot to be said of mach speed at 28" of water. There is a fellow on the nailhead section named snake that is getting 239 cfm at .500 if I remember right. I agre with Chris and the others, with out a flow bench you are working blind after a few of the main things.
     
  13. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Good info, 66gsconv.

    I was thinking of your work but directing you towards the "Stan Weiss Cylinder Head Flow Database". If my link doesn't work, Google that.
    Useful tool for a porter. Look at it on a computer, though. It's a bit huge for a phone.

    You should send your info in, I think it would raise the bar some for Nailheads. Not everyone listed is necessarily a full time pro, there are some notable names associated with certain makes, though.
    You could spend a while on that site. Be sure to read the foreword first...

    Tip for fellow carvers; since my eyesight is changing, I can still see good up close, just not with glasses on. I've recently switched to the kids's snorkeling gogs. You can get yer head right in there with a full view and have little worry about a stray sharp chip bouncing off your cheek up into your eyeball. Believe me, it's no fun having a rusted sharp jagged splinter pulled from your eyeball.:ball: My wife looks at me strangely when I use the breathing tube....:shock::laugh:

    Edited...
     
  14. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    I'll post the flow chart for you. They were not done by me! They were done by dart. The engine was machined by one Flint,Mi. finest machine shop and assembled by me and the owner, three day process. that is the 400 smbchevy casting 509 block. The lower portion was filled to make sure we didn't grind in the water jacket for stroker clearance. Now for the 383 Chevy, Reicer machine shoe in Owosso,Mi. did the machine work. I did the assembly. The heads and intake was done by High Velocity Heads (H.V.H.) it was their combo of everything and I only assembled. believe or not that engine was more vecious then the 421 stroker 400! I still say the 421 didn't have a big enough cam. on the motor it runs very low 11's but on the nitrous it has gone 9.35 in the quarter mile in a 1980's Malibu ..pm me if you have more questions ok.
     
  15. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Cool info!
    I was just politely trying to get you to contribute to your own thread, I really don't have many questions. I've machined and ported a bunch, too. I know exactly what it takes to get this done. I just haven't worked with all types, yet.

    It doesn't help me any to know which shops did some work or what their reputations are....more details on the combo's might be interesting to the forum. I would add mine, but the Buicks I've worked with have been fairly mild.

    As indicated, there's at least two board members here that are going further than Gessler, at least on the Nailhead, maybe more. It shows that a dedicated enthusiast, armed with knowledge, and tools can achieve world class results. Even Vizard had some mentoring along the way.

    I posted a link to an absolutely huge database showing hundreds of types of heads with some pertinent specs., as well as who did some of them.
    I was hoping to see pics here I haven't already seen on the 'Bullet's Cyl. head porn thread, or Google image search.

    I honed in on your builds because they go way beyond the norm for 23*sbc stock block examples. If you can get a hold of those heads, you should make some port molds...

    Waiting to see where this thread goes...
     
  16. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    This is what I have for paper work. Dart race series 220 SBC Aluminum cyl heads 2.100 int val. 1.60 exh. val. FP-240 CC. Int cnc full port 324cfm @.800 lift/ 28" full port cnc exh. 251cfm, @.800 lift/ 28"
     
  17. Vortecpro

    Vortecpro Vortecpro

    Years back I had a ported production 455 head in my shop with a 2.125 valve @ 28 inches we had the following flow with a 4.310 bore.


    .200 150
    .300 222
    .400 267
    .500 273
    .520 282
    Back flow
     
  18. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    Now for the Je pistons. 422 4.165 bore and 3.875 stroke 6.000h beam rod by eagle, 9.000 deck. comp ht. 1.062, 14:4.1 with 58 cc head . dome height 3.0 weight 464grams
     
  19. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    Please look up lunati cam pt number 50140 grind #RRA-276-284 ! By my paper work it is .640 in. .645 ex., duration @ .050 is 276 in. and 284 ex. , advertised duration is 308 in. And 316 ex. he has changed the cam to a much larger cam now and runs in the high 10's on engine and very low 9's on much low nitrous squirt .
     
  20. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    Have you tried biasing the intake valve bowl? I did on a set of 302 heads and gained 15 cfm. I don't have the 302 heads or the paper on them. I sold them to a guy in Kansas.
     

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