Fresh motor problems

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by FCOOFRAZ3, May 19, 2004.


    FCOOFRAZ3 Whiteboy

    I have the ladder bars and can't get anyone to put them on for me. It is a simple job but I can't weld nor do I know the angle that the pinion suppose to be setup on. If I can get the car to stop the body roll then I would get down in some numbers. Do it require a tracking bar for the rear ent for twist or just get the bars on and let it ride. I would appreciate the transmission plat to stop the twist. It really needs to get all of that out and leave straight as an arrow. Do u think adjustable upper control arms would do any justice to stop it from rolling.
  2. what about an air bag in right rear spring?. also an anti sway bar will help in keeping the car level, although with as much power as your trying to put to the ground it wont cure your problem. a good 1 " rear sway bar would make a difference. I ran a low 11 second with N20. (12.0 without the N20) skylark that weighed 4000 lbs and all i ran was 7/8 sway bar.. competition engineering adjustable drag shocks and a pair of air bags in springs with the passenger side preloaded to 9 psi. worked well for me but sounds like your a whole bunch faster. Bob
  3. badbuik

    badbuik Well-Known Member

    I know that this "Thread" has been going for awhile now and maybe I forgot some, but if you're cracking transmissions that's alot of twist. Does the car have a good, full roll cage? If it's all tied together it will help, if it does, consider addind a bar going across the dash, paralell to the dash. What about motor mounts? Are you running both motor & trans. mounted with solid mounts?? I'm going to have to go back reread the Threads. You said it ran a 6.92, it hooked, and you got out of it, Why??? If it hooked all the way, why get ou of it? Are the slicks old? Have you tried to all some ballast (weight) in the trunk? Adding it may help. Can't hurt to try, you're already having problems.
    gary G.
  4. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    I know I said this before but I'm going to say it again. Call Robert at Auto Tech. (910) 484-0606 There address is 4425 Cumberland Rd. They have a new shop and Chassis Works is right behind them. Its a couple miles down Cumberland off Owen dr as you go towards Hope Mills. It wont be free but it aint that hard to put in a ladder bar and coil over. He's done alot and Tim and Chassis Works builds anything and everything for a race car. If you want I can even call to get info and arrange things for you. You need to get that car straightened out or your just going to keep breaking stuff and throwing money at it. I'm sure you've already spent more than you planned but you need to get it right so you can start running those low 6's your shooting for. PLUS you'll drop a bunch of weight going to a ladder bar since they'll take out that big steel cross section above the coil springs and replace it with a 1 3/4 bar that the coil overs will mount to.

    You wont even know its the same car once you put a ladder bar on it. It should just about drive itself down the track. Imagine being able to look at the tach and gauges during a run.:Brow: A ladder bar makes a day and night difference over a stock setup. So just do it.:TU:

    The only reason I don't recommend the air bag, sway bar, and stuff is if you have the ladder bar and coil overs, your just wasting money on stuff your going to be taking off. You should be able to sell your upper and lower control arms once you make the change over.

    Adjustable upper control arms wont help with your twist problem.

    If I am to call for you, you will have to let me know exactly what you have. If you have the diagonal link, ladder bars, coil overs, and spring mounts they can fabricate the rest and should get it done in a day.
  5. 10inchbuick

    10inchbuick Midwest Buick Mafia

    You need to put some sort of front motor plates and a mid plate to help tie the motor to the chassis stock motor mounts are junk.If you have plates put in have them move the motor back as close to the fire wall as posible also I would have them lower the motor in the chassis.This will help lower the center of gravity and move it father back this will help weight transfer.If you have a cage with bars through the fire wall tie the plates into the front down bars.If you don't have a full cage with front down bars this is the time to do it.the car needs to be stiff before you start tuning on it or else you will be chasing your tail and wasting hp twisting the car.
    If you use coil overs to take the body roll out of the car your just masking the problem plus the car won't track right down track you don't need to be fighting the car.
    When you have the ladder bars put in the car make sure they put the crossmember as far up in the chassis as possible if the car sits low.You want the bars level or pointing down very slightly.They might have to notch the floor pans for clearance so be it.The car will work better the lower you get it and if you get the crossmember in right possition.
    I would call the guys Ricks talking about and get it done it will be worth it.
    I tune a ladder bar mustang that runs consistant low 1.20 60ft on a 29.5 10.5 mt breaking the beams with the rear tires If the front tires where on the ground it would 60 in the teens.
    PS the more power you put to a ladder bar the better it works
  6. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    I'll see what I can do about getting my "Mrs." to drop the mid plate ears off at Auto Tech.

    Ladder bars only pivot at the cross member since they are welded and bolted solid to the rear end. The only way the rear and the car will twist is if the axle tube ripps out of the center section. Thats why its always highly recommended to weld the axle tubes to the rear since the factory just pins them on 10/12 bolts and Dana's. You do have to run a diagonal link or some type of track locator but thats only for track not twist.

    FCOOFRAZ3 Whiteboy

    So what u are saying is to get the bars put on then get the track bar installed and it will stop the twist that is occuring with this car. They have told me to tie the chassis but what is that. I have a one piece chassis on the Buick Regal. Another thing, what is the wieght of a stock regal with the front bumper off and no seats and carpet in it.

    I would appreciate if she would drop the mid plate ears off at auto tech. I want this thing to run as fast on motor as possible. Do u know the pinion angle that it suppose to be setup on and how stiff can the shocks be. I really want to get this thing setup to really get down. How fast do u thinl it can go on motor.
  8. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member


    The track bar (diagonal link) it part of the ladder bar setup. It keeps the ladder bars pointed straight. The Ladder bars will eliminate the twist since the ladders bars do not pivot on the rear end. In order for the car to twist, one ladder bar would have to move up and the other down. Since they are mounted solid on the rear housing, the axle tubes would have to twist allowing the ladder bar to go in opposite directions giving you "twist". Does that explain it better.

    Well, there are two things for this. The entire body "floats" on the frame. The Body has rubber bushing between the body and the frame which allows frame flexing and addition body twist. The factory does this for road noise reduction and make things less ridged for "comfort".
    So, with this in mind, the idea is to make the car more ridged and solid by eliminating all the rubber bushings in between the body and the frame "tieing" the two together.
    Also by adding a cage that is "tied" into your frame also makes the car more solid.

    All this reduces body flex and movement that causes you to have to "DRIVE" the car all the way down the track. You know how the car want to go left to right and you have to steer the crap out of it to keep it straight going down the track? Tire spin? think again..... It is tire slip but the cars flex make it reach more extreme. With eveything tied and ladder bars, the car will go straight. Even with some tire slip it will only drift instead of turning.

    I would think no more than 3400. Get rid of the heater core and all the under dash heating/ac stuff.

    The pinion angle is oppisite of the trans angle plus 2-3 degress with a ladder bar.
    Your rear shocks set in the middle setting should be fine. Your rear shouldn't move that much launching the car with a ladder bar. If it does, its not set right. Adjustable front shocks is the most important. A good 12 way adjustable is the only way to go.

    With a transbrake, ladder bars, and everything right, 6.70's should be easy. What do you have for a transbrake setup? you need a rev limiter tied into the trans brake so you can set the launch rpm. That way you can push the transbrake button, push the gas to the floor, and the rev limiter will hold the rpms where you want it so when the light goes green all you do is let go of the button.

    I will see what i can do about getting those plates to Auto Tech. Do you want me to say anything about installing a ladder bar?
  9. badbuik

    badbuik Well-Known Member

    It seems, that many basic areas that should have been addressed when putting this car together, have been skipped, with just thinking about going fast.....Tons of advice has been given and all seems to be lost because, "I gotta squeeze it, I have 3 guys to race....." If ya answer the questions we ask about the car/combo. the responses you have gotten will help, and you'll have fun and be able to race longer, and Safer.
    Rick C. you are a very positive, and patient, man, good luck with this one. Haven't talked in awhile, hope all is well.
    Gary G.

    FCOOFRAZ3 Whiteboy

    That is good, How do u install the ladder bar setup. Iwill try and get the tracking bar on the way. I have a hipster brake in the transmission, and the digital 6plus has the rpm limiter on it for the transbrake purpose. I really want this car to get down in some numbers. I don't want to have to spray but about a 200 shot to get it down to a 6.40 or 30. This is the number that I am trying to acheive.
  11. 10inchbuick

    10inchbuick Midwest Buick Mafia

    You need to have the guys Rick suggested using do the ladder bars and put a cage in it along with solid body mounts and a mid plate and front motor plates the car will launch straight and drive down the track straight.If you put a cage in use chrome moly the weight savings is worth it.Take your time and finish the car right don't cut corners.
  12. Mr Big

    Mr Big Silver Level contributor

    Some good advise has been given here....

    Trying to just "go fast" in a unsafe car...Could get you killed!

    Work on that chassis.

    FCOOFRAZ3 Whiteboy

    I have gotten the ladder bars on the car and now I am trying to figure out what is the amount of retard for the nitrous. I want to shoot a 200 shot at the car and let it ride one time.
  14. 10inchbuick

    10inchbuick Midwest Buick Mafia

    I would start with 8-10 it and look at the plugs and go from there.

    FCOOFRAZ3 Whiteboy

    I have found out that my tourque converter is bad because when I stahl it is stall like 4000 on the foot and then when I am driving it it won't lock up until it gets around that and the convertor was built tight to start with. I will be taking it out and replacing it with the 9 inch that I had in there the first time. I hope that it does not blow through the convertor on the nos. I need to know where the timing needs to be on the motor for the best performance. I currently am running it at 36 degrees it seems too violent for me at that degree of timing. I will be putting a manual valve body in the trans and try and get it off the line in second gear with the nos like a powerglid does. Do u think that it will work out better that way and just shift it normally on motor and do the second gear thing on the gas?
  16. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    I think i remember saying 4.10's were too much with a th400. I would think changing the gears would be cheeper than a trans change.
  17. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    :Dou: Leave the timing where it is unless you just want to slow it down. Make all the power you can the adjust the converter, suspension and gear to work with it. If it feels too violent have the converter adjusted or load the conveter harder on the lauch to take some of the "hit" out of it. You will need a transbrake and a 2-step to do this.

    Don't even think of launching in second with juice. Why do you want to go slower? You have too much gear in the rear and leaving in second is NOT the fix. At 3500+ lbs you have no choice but to stay with the th400. You need the gearing! If you go to a glide you would still have to change the gear in the rear so keep what you have and put 3.73's in it if you can't get it to work with 4.10's.

    Your 8" converter is not bad, its just not right for a iron headed 455 on JUICE in your heavy ass car. It's not designed to work below 5000 rpm. I'm assuming that you went ahead and tried that 8" anyways since the 9" is going back in. :Do No: You got to stop listening to guys that race and work on light-weight bracket race cars. Buicks are different but the math is the same. People just apply the wrong math to try to get it all to work on a 455. You got to use a different combination than most are used to.

    Story Time......
    Years ago a guy used to race a full weight 65 Skylark with 2.73's, exhaust manifolds, stock valve iron heads, 11" converter, and shifted at 4800 and went mid 11's on a small shot of juice. It was an awsome street set-up that retained full streetability. My point is don't limit yourself on using RPM, GEARS, HIGH STALLS, AND HIGH compression to get the numbers your looking for on your Buick. You have a nitrous Big Block with alot of torque that will make a mess out of the wrong gaers and converters.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2004
  18. 10inchbuick

    10inchbuick Midwest Buick Mafia

    You need to stop chasing your tail.From what it sounds like neither convertor you have is right for your combo.The convertor is the single most important part in the drive train.You need to order a convertor for nitrous designed for your combo.You will need to be able to tell them where the motor makes power and what rpm the motor drops to on nitrous at the shift.The last month I have been dealing with convertor issues on my buddys ford we just switched from a 8in coan to a 9in coan and picked up almost 2 tenths and 5mph in the 1/8 off the trailer this is a 1200hp small block in a light car 3125lb.Now for a 3500lb big block car you will most likely need a tight 9in or a 10in with a stall of 3000-3400 on hp and 4400 on nitrous the convertor company will set it up for you.Keep in mind our convertors were deigned for our combo not something we had laying around.We have been through all the bs your doing right now and learned its best to get the right part for the job instead of trying to make the wrong one work.

    FCOOFRAZ3 Whiteboy

    No Rick I have not tried the 8 inch back since I first took it out of the car. I have been running the nine inch convertor and have been quite impressed with it but it seems to have streched on me or something. This convertor was built for a 565 ci big block with lots of juice so that is why I can't see why it would not work. I have been running the 4.10 gear for ever now. I don't have the 3.73 gear for the big ten but I will try and put a 29.5x10.5 on the car and see if it will kill some of that gear. I am going to try the eight inch this weekend while the nine incher is getting repaired.
  20. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    Sorry to hear about your converter. Sounds like you got robbed. :blast: Maybe they set it up for a 2500 lb car.....

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