Big Chief heads for big block Buick

Boy this thread just never stops. I have not read through it much lately, only the last page. I will share a few up dates as to what is going on. Gary I have received your letter, as we get a little closer I can try and contact Sonny and run a few things past him. The 350 Buick manifold pattern is finished, I just need to get the foundry to pick it up to make sample castings. We have moved to the 350 head. Yes, Gary we have made flow boxes. I was just in CA and spent some time going over the project. Many options are being looked at. Valve locations, sizes, lengths, rocker types etc. With the flow box we can build a set of ports, test them, remove them from the box and build another set for testing. All the ports can be put back into the box which has a combustion chamber and retested. Our new head for the 455 is a clean sheet of paper project. I have been accused by some of worrying to much about everything else still bolting on. I get that because I normally do. This one isn't going to be quite like that. I really hope folks step up because these projects are killers $$$ wise. And they really never turn a profit in regards to $$$ spent. Just ask Sherri, NO please don't. We have also been playing around with some different ports in the TE head. Might do something there as well.

 

Anson,
They were tooling points. By locating the chambers there they remained more accurate. There is one more, its in the center towards the intake side, between the pushrod holes. We still use that one today.

 

Thank you, Jesupercat, I did not know the rules of your class. I love learning new and old things. Thank you again.

 

Mike, call Reher-Morrison and ask For Darin Morgan or Call Pro-filer Performance products and ask them about getting your heads casted! They might know someone closer or better yet have a better deal for you. Remember this guy's deal in cast right technology meaning (Less machining on your part and casted within spec's!)

 

Devon, After reading your post on Big Chief heads for big block Buick, I was really pissed off and had to talk to my wife to carefully choose my words so I wouldn't get kicked off this site, cause of saying something I would regret later! I don't know what I did to make you made at me! I was just expressing my opinion on and asked for some answers on my opinion. "why hasn't anyone made better heads yet?" What's wrong with that? Yes, I do understand it cost money to design a new set of cylinder heads but, there is a lot you can do with Mike's existing heads! The flow boxes is one way and it is cheap to do! you'll spend on the high end $200.00 for the materials you need to make a flow box. That's far better then $100,000.00 just get you a one off set heads by a big shot name, don't you think! Devon, you might be into physic's and math and have your engineering license in brakes and fuel, But unless you went back to school in the last 3 years, your already way behind! Before you start getting ticked at me, look at what I got to write first, Simple High school Physic's, there was a equation you should've remembered and it does pertain to CYLINDER HEAD DEIGNING " http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/bernouilli-equation-d_183.html Read it, it's filled with great facts. You can figure out what you need to do to make a better cylinder head! Now here is the magical question, Why haven't you done any research on how to make a better cylinder head or help develop a better cylinder head? You are a Brake and Fuel Engineer right? Oh, by the way I do have a ton of schooling behind me and a family that worked in Buick and General Motors. Matter of fact, how's this for you, one was Buick motor division Engine engineer until 2006 and several at the G.M. Cylinder Head division plant and two at the G.M. Metal Fab plant right there in Flint, Michigan. Now, where did you work at to be a Brake and Fuel Engineer? Yes, I learned a lot there when they took me to work ! My Auto Mechanic's teacher was a 10x time Michigan state Champion in his class in his NHRA Class, My father was a 15 year champion at Auto city speedway in Cilo, Mi. , My Auto Machinist Teacher was a 10 year state champion in his class in Michigan for racing circle track. I can keep going but, I won't because "All the Big Shot Names that I have mentioned , I know and have talked to them to them about doing a new Buick cylinder head design". What is your excuse now! I live by a saying and you should too, " It's not about the fight within you, but it's about how far are you willing to go"! I'm willing to go all the way, what about you? I'm not asking for any money to help design/develop a new cylinder head, just notoriety . I love to help people if I can. I have done over 20 engines that was over 700 horse power and did them for free! Here is something else Devon, My uncle that worked at the Buick Engine plant " the Engine Engineer", he taught me what he was taught, "Why Live with substandard engineering, when you can make it better!". That is the golden ticket there! Devon , Didn't you make better Brake systems and better fuel or did you live with the substandard engineering? I can learn new things and I have, that's why I know about new cylinder head design's I keep up with today's engineering and talk to the big shots when I can. I have learned from best, Darin Morgan, Head of the Cylinder head design/development department at Reher-Morrison Racing Engine's , Sonny Leonard, Owner , designer of several Brodix cylinder heads, designed atleast five different of his own cylinder heads "Symmetrical port heads and gm symmetrical hemi heads, at Sonny's Racing Engines, Curtis Boggs at Race Flow Development, totally redesigns the port layout in existing cylinder heads to make more power then previous heads, Mike Moran of Moran Motorsports "Moran Racing Engines" , The maker of the fastest door slammer on the planet and has broken his own record several times over, He is a good friend of mine. If you don't think these guy's know there stuff, you are absolutely crazy! Mike Moran just picked up a TA Performance aftermarket block for his Grand National BUICK, you will be reading about that build so I promise you that! All I ever wanted was a simple answer to my OPINION not some knock down drag out argument. Thanks for all that believe in me and for those That don't, remember it's only my opinion. Sincerely Gary

 

Gary did he buy ta's 6 or 8 cyl

 

Alright , now I know. And looking at the pics of the cast iron stage II heads, I do see the bump in the intake port on the inside. That must have only been a stage II deal because I do not see that bump in the intake , or the degree of unshrouding of the chamber on any of the factory heads I have.

 

Gary, that little triangle in the corner, that's the been offended by post button. I think Devon deserves to be put in the triangle for his comments toward you. :spank:

 

Devon is part of the reason I don't post tech here hardly at all now and also why I deleted most of my postings from my own cylinder head thread. He has no clue about cylinder heads but yet makes statements that are waaaaaaay of base. The fact is Devon was waaaaay of base again here on his posting but most of all he called out and called down Gary here and this is a on going problem with him. This BS needs to stop. Say what you guys want but there has been a lot of talent go through here that have stopped posting for the same reasons.

Gary, hold your head high. I respect the work/studying you have put into this topic thank you for sharing this info and thoughts.

 

Great suggestion Gary, I passed Mike onto Curtis Boggs of Race Flow Development Both top shelf in cylinder heads.

 

From my Standpoint:

There are several "name droppers" on this site who are quick to make a suggestion when it comes to "get this done by X" but are a bit short on the nuts and bolts of it.. Sure, every person would love to have a billet block, and every vendor would love to have multiple trick pieces to sell.

You could make a totally awesome Buick aftermarket cylinder head, with the investment of hundreds of man hours, and thousands of dollars, working with any of the folks suggested here.

Who is going to pay for that?

That all costs money, and lots of it. That's why we don't have these parts sitting on the shelf, we are not building a BBC. The development costs to do what Gary suggests are staggering, to say the least. These costs cannot be justified. There just is not the market to support tremendous development costs.

I would suggest that it would be more productive to pursue the logistics of how to pay for "X Celebrity" to make these parts, than it is to come on to every thread and give out phone numbers.

I also would suggest that direct contact with a vendor with your ideas, is better than attempting to use a forum like this to direct a vendors product development.

While I am sure intentions are good, after a while, the members will get tired of seeing that same post.. time and again. And that is exactly what happened to trigger Devon's post. I had the same reaction recently, and posted accordingly.

I removed that post because it simply opens us for attack by those who wish to attack the board and it's members, for their own silly, childish reasons.



JW

 

Just a couple things here Jim. I civil discussion on the subject at hand in this this should not be the cause of these attacks. Gary suggested some very valid points on the subject hence Mike responding here to what he has said.

The Name dropping, I am guessing you are referring to me here but please correct me if I am wrong. You or Devon do not have any idea or are privy to the discussion's or the depth of my conversations or with who on this mater so I think it would be out of line to make opinion on that matter.

With the technology that is out there the R&D time is cut waaaay down and is not as much as you are thing judging by your comments. I believe that a new cylinder head is within reach for the Buick camp or Mike wouldn't be building a head.

As I have know Mike for many years I can say that he will talk to Curtis and most likely Darin, and the reason why is because Mike has always had open ears, asked questions and researched the hell out of any project he has done for the Buick people so bouncing idea's of each other should not be criticized.

Its seems easier for some to criticize or discredit something they don't understand. A lot of people post from a Google search NOT experience and take it as the last word without a true understanding on the subject.

 

Chris

Your wrong, I was not thinking of you.

JW

 

Thank you for clarifying that for me. What do you think about a billet head with water jackets Jim? I hope what ever gets built will be done in such a manner that the port size will be very adjustable to match the combo of each build. Maybe its time someone starts a new thread.

 

He bought the V-6 for his Grand National, Mr Moran wants to make some serious power and display it like always.

 

Jim, I do know how much it cost to do r&d work! I'm not stupid by far, I have kept up with Darin Morgan and his school, which I plan on attending and suggest anyone that wants to do any type of cylinder head work. Let be simple port and polishing to all out designing and developing your own head. http://www.darinmorgan.com/ Look at that and tell me you couldn't afford to go there and learn what I'm talking about! This man has more experience then anyone or anybodies combined in here on cylinder heads, but you have the nerve to say BS like that to me? Really! That's why I suggested Darin Morgan on cylinder head design and possible place's to get his cylinder heads made cheaper then any one on here. There is this thing called cast right technology and it save's thousands of dollars on machining processes that are eliminated with cast right. Since alot of people don't know that maybe you should look into it to. I don't like to blow my whistle because I want too, It's because I LOVE TO HELP PEOPLE SAVE MONEY AND TIME IF POSSIBLE. Jim, I did read your last post before you removed it. I would've never removed, It shows me you don't care. See I'm the type of person that has done over 32 700 plus horse power engines that range from big blocks to small blocks and from Fords, Chevy's, and a Pontiac, that was all done for free. Just out of the kindness of my heart, not wanting to make some money! Jim, I built everyone of my engines from either E-Bay, Racing Junk .com and and few other places including swap meet parts, not Brand new stuff. Yes there was a few time's I have been screwed in the process but I prevailed in the end. When you build something from the heart you'll prevail ten times fold, By the way I never spent anything over $4000.00 on any of this engines and they all survived for over 10 years before needing rebuilt! Choosing the right parts for the right job is where you make the power, not geussing what part might work with that part. That is what I call a "Fool's Errand". Please don't be that person, you are far better then that. Please dont erase your post, you are a brillent man. Thank you for helping the Buick community. Sincerely Gary

 

Hey.. shoot the messenger if you have to, my postings in the last two pages of this thread are directly related to PM's and conversations from users about you Gary. There is a bit of a rumble out there..

Your writing style is both abrasive and nearly incomprehensible.

A case in point

GSX455,There is one thing that still pleagues me, why didn't you just call Pro-Filer Cylinder heads and have them make you a custom set of heads to make well beyond 1000 horsepower? Your set up is awesome. The problem I see is large cubic inches and still not enough cylinder head for it. Look at any Big Block Chevy, Ford, Pontiac, Mopar they all have aftermarket heads that breath a ton more then Buick's aftermarket heads. I have been trying for the last 6 months to get three types of heads produced for anyone that can use them, I studied Cylinder heads for the last 16 years and found out Buick is the worst out there. Everyone needs to tell Mike at TA Performance to make the heads I propose to him, Those heads would do you justice like no other. They look like Buick cylinder heads but take the valve cover off, then there is nothing of Buick there. Canted/splayed valved head. It's about getting your valve angles rt and port location rt. The current Stage heads need to be up graded like a new stage 5 and 6 and best for last a stage 7 Pro-stock style cylinder head (Dart Big Cheif head, Reher-Morrison Raptor head, Brodix BB2,3,4,5 HEADS, Pro-Filer heads. thats where you came in and need them.) Please don't think I'm dishin your Engine, Trust me I'm from Michigan orginally. They have some of the best high performance machine shops in the world their. I wish you the best of luck and post your times please.

Gary McGruther

While I believe your intentions to be good, there is a concept that your missing:

You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Saying "I'm not dishin on your motor" after you have done just that, doesn't work.

I got a few "who the H does he think he is" PM's after that.

Gave them my standard answer.. "just ignore posts you don't like"

I would have been glad to never touch this tarbaby thread again, but when users start going after members who speak their mind, and I know it's the thoughts of more a few guys, I won't sit by and let it happen.

I still contend that regardless of Darin Morgan's seminar cost, the actual cost of building a cylinder head like we are talking about, for which there will be few buyers, is beyond what anyone trying to run a business would pay. Too small a market.

I am happy that TA is doing it, as a pet project of it's owner.



JW

 

Same thing I think about going to the moon... Sounds fun.. who's paying for the trip?

To be honest, I have no idea what developement costs would be, beyond what I am glean from conversations with manufacturers.. so, I did a little internet search.

Comp Eliminator is full of guys pushing the outer limits on combo's and here is what one of those racers, who actually did a billet head, has to say about it.

The first thing you have to pay for is the ego. I have my own cylinder head and it has water. Most builders of this nature will try to convince you no water because it is easier on them. The most expensive part is the programing. After that it is just machine time.
Example: I went to Allan Johnson and showed him what I wanted he said 20-25 thousand for the the first head and 8-9 thousand a pair after that with a minimum of 8-10 sets run.
I really wanted to do this. So here I am driving home two hours and i figure BAE is another two hours the other way. I did not know Brad at the time and I had heard he has quite of an ego. So as I call him and ask to see him and his office says come on down. I walk into his office and it dawns on me what to say.
The first thing he says to me is your waisting your time and I do not think i am interested. So my come back was "Allan Johnson said it couldn't be done also." So he grabbed my stuff and says let me look at it again. At the end of the day he did make my product and I run it today. The problem is that ther is other sets of these heads out there in which i paid for all the R&D, programing and machining and it is labeled right on the end of the head my logo. BAE says to me when I question this, is that I only own that port design, so if it is changed by ten thousand's I no longer own it.
Sorry for the long story. Cost 15-20 thousand first design. 6-8 thousand a pair after that with the right builder.

Art Hodges




Hell, I don't know, sounds like a lot of cash to me.

JW

 

JW makes a few good points I would like to touch on...

the people who are "name droppers" are not the whole problem, its the people why think that because they know person "X" or persons that somehow it means they know what they are talking about also. If only you could gain intelligence through association! no need for education or experience just be buddies with people that do and youll be able to absorb their knowledge by contact. It actually works too, i met Arnold when he was the govenator and he shook my hand, thats how i got to be so buff, I personally know miley cirus so obviously i can sing and dance too, you should see me twerk! I even look good in the short shorts also. So next time your talking cylinder heads to someone who has an engineering degree or two and they dont understand what your talking about you shouldnt question their intelligence, they probably dont get what your saying because your not explaining it correctly or just plain ol dont know what they hell your talking about and are regurgitating something you heard someone else say and misquoting them.

The cost of making your own head for production is very costly most people just are not going to spend the money, your not only going to have to pay for the cost of the R and D and tooling but also the rights to own the design. some people think that because you pay a guy to port a set of heads for you that you own it but thats not correct. you cant just copy what was done and slap your name on it and sell it. I know guys who have been sued for this and I have personally talked to an attorney myself. the best explanation he gave me was lets say you buy a new camaro. its yours, you own it, you can do whatever you want to with it. however, just because you buy a camaro doesnt give you the right to now copy that camaro put your name on it and start selling it. This is a problem across the industry so if your smart you would make port molds of all your stuff and document everything like I do. or better yet dont do business with people that would do that to you. Ive seen it more that once, people just dont get that not only it is completely unethical its totally illegal. dont believe me, call your lawyer.

I would also like everyone to know that there was a study recently published that showed it is possible to contract AIDS through the eyes from constant exposure to bullsh*t. I suggest reading with caution and the proper safety equiptment when reading some of these posts

 

Well at least we don't get to the point of hunting each other down and beheading someone. It sucks to say this but I will, Us men , we can be just as much of a drama queen as most women. In our case , we hide it here on V8 Buick. Which is much better than out in public some ware. So I have a suggestion for the suggestion box. We need a drama thread box or section spot. When posts get hot under the colar, and u now its time for drama, BAM .. in the drama box. Then those who want to respond and release pent up dramas, can do so. It would beat having to scroll through pages of nothingness to find the good information in the thread.
I am not sugesting that I be the one to do this, I would nominate someone who knows how to make a program that would automatically do this.