Big Chief heads for big block Buick

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by bigdwg03, Mar 17, 2014.

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  1. Doug's Stage X

    Doug's Stage X Well-Known Member

    I'm tired of seeing posts removed. People say what they want to say, then edit their posts as they see fit. They may also delete their initial topics which delete the whole thing.

    I'm with Devon on this one.
    If you don't want the world to see/hear your thoughts, than don't put on the internet in writing.
    Your comments define you as you really are, some people need to be ignored, but name calling.
    Come on now, show some respect and your knowledge and ability will shine.
     
  2. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    Ken, I do appreciate all the efforts made here but you have to admit that this is a huge undertaking impossible or not. I along with others have bought up vary valid points about the angle taken on this project only to be talked down to that said there is not one person here I am sure that is not thankful for Jordan's service to his country specially at a time where so much is going on around the world and I thank you and ALL others for that Jordan.

    Ken, you have history in the buick community and firmly believe that this project would be better served by you doing the PR and Jordan working hard in the back ground to get a product ready to bolt on a test engine before asking others to lay down the coin for something so raw in form like this project.

    There is nothing conventional about the approach being taken here when you are on the out side looking in but if a racer is desperate enough he can make almost anything work. Right off the bat as seen above I questioned the cost of the raw castings and was run over. I think you might want to visit the Curtis Boggs thing. These guys have 30+years of cylinder head development under there belt which offers a few huge plus's that in my eyes would only help your cause. 1) People here would see you guys working with someone that has a huge resume in cylinder head development. 2) He has the buying power and can get his hands on the raw castings you guys need for this project. 3) He has several CNC programs already in place to which he CAN change to meet the given needs of the combo to your buyers and I am sure that he could then incorporate head bolt pattern etc as need be and leave the welding, fabricating and finishing touches to Jordan.

    Right off the get go the start up cost for the casting would be ALOT less money for you and your future customers as seen in the link above it is $5600 fully CNC ported with castings out the door so why wouldn't you want to pass that saving on to future customers? And he can get his hands on the castings with out any problem because he is very well known in the industry. I fully understand that there would have to be changes to the CNC port but it would be easier to modify then starting with nothing.

    I do hope you guys pull something off here, I will be very interested to see how it plays out. If you invest in your own project no matter how out there it might seem and bring a product to the table that works then racers have a lot to be gained, If you get racers to invest up front and it goes south then that is a hit most guys might not recover from.

    Putting pressure on people to hurry up and order your once in a life time type raw casting deal is most likely not working in your favor and that goes back to Curtis again. Use the help that is out there to make this work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  3. bigdwg03

    bigdwg03 Well-Known Member




    1. you were not talked down to until you made disrespectful and condescending remarks. I just responded with the attitude I received.
    2. This is MY business, I am the sole owner and I do not need to hire a marking agent or PR manager.
    3. My cost on the RAW castings is the going rate, the problem is NO ONE will sell an unmachined head, I called Dart and I talked to Darrin Morgan, no dice. I called in a personal favor to be able to set this up. I will in no capacity be involved with another shop as a partner in any project ever.
    5. the link is to a CHEVY head that he has a cnc program for, your forgetting the added cost of machining head bolts, dowels, water jackets, intake and exhaust face, drill and tapping holes. all this is done direct from dart. there are literally 10 companies that make an aftermarket chevy block, buick has one.
    6. I have called numerous casting companies, the cost is 100K to get tooled up for a cylinder head. IF you could sell them and make 2k profit per set you would have to sell 50 sets just to break even. There is a few more than 50 tomahawk blocks out there and very very few want a cylinder of this nature. To get the same cost of the big chevy stuff you have to have the sales and it just isnt there the cost is more than justified. Im not talking bare CNC heads what the cost included was a manifold and complete cylinder head, from valve cover to valve train, ready to run and individually designed for each combination. Because of the low desire for the heads there is no justification to run the same CNC program for everyone. The price I quoted was more than fair for a hand built and customized cylinder head for each customers application. If you cant afford a "5K hit" that you "would never recover from" then you couldnt afford the rest of the head and have no business putting up the money. I hope people arent actually considering over extending their bank for something like this.

    7. most importantly, the point is moot, I stand by my previous post. I WILL NOT be doing a big chief buick head. If this is how well my services are recieved by the members of this board then it will no longer be an option. I do not need the work, nor the money, and especially not the headache or harrasment. Good luck to you guys and I wish you well in all you racing endevors, i truly hope you guys can get the products you need it just wont be from me.

    Doug if you read this your obviously excluded, the modified 350 head and BBB head Im doing for you are still gonna happen, youve been more than supportive and sent me tons of work, and ill have MY name on more modified heads. thanks keep up the work (and sending me some! LOL)
     
  4. 65buick

    65buick Active Member

    I like see that Jordan is staying true to the people that support him and don't talk bad about him. I'm teaching my kids that if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. I'm sure that if the world was that way then we would all just get along and we could get farther as a community. If we work together we will get farther and get there faster. everyone knows that if you work alone you get there slower.
     
  5. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    Where did the BEST HEAD PORTER thread go? You need to go back and re read who attacked who first. Any way no matter, I am not sure where you saw that Curtis's CNC ported heads don't come with head bolt holes etc because bolt holes ain't really an option over there. Sorry I even bothered.
     
  6. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    You do realize that the few that gave you a hard time are people that are competing to make Buick parts,or are friends with those people? Probably just what they wanted you to do,cop an additude and not let anyone from here buy anything from you. Thats is unfortunate it has come to this.

    I'm not huge into racing and wouldn't be a buyer for this type of product,but I do find this sort of work VERY interesting. I do hope you post your progress with pictures here(or at least a final product). And if you have any problems getting castings from Dart, I might be able to get a hold of George Delorean,the last time I talked to him he still worked at Dart.(and yes,he's John Delorean's brother,and its been over a year since I talked to him,but I can still try if you need me too.Dart is less than 10 miles away from me.)

    I think your biggest obstacle to do this IMO is the head bolt holes,but with some machining and welding it can be overcome. I wish you the best of luck with this project,and hope your results are more sucessful than anyone thought.:TU:

    Derek
     
  7. bigdwg03

    bigdwg03 Well-Known Member

    I was already able to locate a supplier for castings but, like everyone else, they cast heads and then machine them. I would need to get them fresh out of the sand and the opportunity presented itself. I'm truely sorry I even shared the information I have no desire to fight over business with anyone especially for the 3-5 guys who would run these. Sorry you'll have to wait for TA or someone else. Again no need for a headache, the only buick I work on now is my own.

    thanks
     
  8. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    If for some reason your supplier fails to deliver,keep me in mind I would be more than happy to do what I can to help. I could even see if I can do better on pricing for the raw castings if you want. (you can PM me if you're interested)


    Derek
     
  9. HotRodRivi

    HotRodRivi Tomahawks sighted overseas

    I injected some humor to the conversation and lightened things up a bit. I gave what I can, granted that's not much but it was not negative to others in this thread. Is the moderator so uptight they cant laugh a little. My thread did have merit , Royden gave me a factual answer. My mind now has good knowledge thanks to Royden, but now that it has been erased, others cannot gain this knowledge. Does talkin shi t gain you access to the not deleted club. What gives. I hope anyone will see the humor in this so here goes..... Wait is humor not allowed in the Buick forum? Take off them granny panties and throw on some nut huggers this aint your fathers Buick anymore its 2014.
    Check out the 4mv THREAD , I am the best rochester porter around.
    No I dont want 18" pythons bearing down on me, I think Hulk Hogans were biggger though.
     
  10. Jeff Kitchen

    Jeff Kitchen Well-Known Member

    Just a voice from the past. I don't have a dog in the fight anymore. But, I have to ask, at what point is it not a Buick any more. I can understand the TA block is still basically a Buick design, just better. But to take an aftermarket block, crank, rods, etc, and then put a Chevy head on it, can you call that a Buick? Before I spent $50G's building one of those motors, I'd look real hard at a Dart block and heads, it just so happens they are listed under the Chevrolet section. Same parts, just a different name on the valve cover. What I'm saying is that at least the TA block and heads are based on Buick stuff and resemble Buick stuff. But, re-drilling a Chevy head to fit a Buick block? Really???

    I'm out. Have fun!

    PS - Chris, hurry up an put a motor in my ... whoops ... your car! :pp
     
  11. ken betts

    ken betts Well-Known Member

    Love ya Jeff but the heads that are put on Chevy race engines don't look anything like a factory production head. When you are talking 5's, 6's, and 7 sec. quarters, these are the aftermarket brains even if a factory part # is assigned. Just what factory look alike part made mid 12 sec. runs in the 70's now run low 11 and high 10 sec qtrs. I hate to admit it but even if the TA block, which currently has a Buick bore center, but would not make it in the aforementioned quarter mile times if it really resembled a stock iron block. Now move the bore centers and bigger bore and stroke and you could get over 800 cu.in's from one. I would still put Buick on the car and engine. Anyone like where I am going with this?!?!?!
     
  12. Jeff Kitchen

    Jeff Kitchen Well-Known Member

    Ken,

    I'm not going to get into a chest beating contest like the previous posts. But, just to point out that, yes, I know exactly what a Big Chief head is and I know exactly what it takes to run 7's. And, as I'm sure you know, the 5.2 and 5.3 bore center blocks out there now are all billet. So, you could definitely build a 5" BC Buick block out of billet, but that's a $15k + ordeal just for the block. Then put some re-drilled Big Chiefs on it? I think you're getting away from a "Buick" at that point. How about buying a BB Chevy raw block from Dart and put a BOP bellhousing bolt pattern on it, then put some Big Chiefs on that? Call that a "Buick"! LOL! Just kidding.

    Yes, there is a whole big world of racing outside of Buicks! Think outside the box.

    Have fun!
     
  13. ken betts

    ken betts Well-Known Member

    Point well taken!
     
  14. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    Kinda like the old DRC's that said Oldsmobile on them. Thanks to you Jeff I now like the LS stuff :Dou: :)
     
  15. HotRodRivi

    HotRodRivi Tomahawks sighted overseas

    anybody ever try fitting the big ford boss 429 heads to a buick? those would flow good. What about Hemi Mopar heads, ?? Makes about as much sense as big chief chevy heads.
     
  16. bigdwg03

    bigdwg03 Well-Known Member

    you know what really makes sense is buying a bare big block buick for almost 7K and putting heads on them that flow less air fully ported than out of the box SMALL chevy heads, now THATS a winner right?

    when I said big chief i said STYLE heads not the original 1990s heads but the large raised runner head with a conventional port layout. The only think that would be a step up would be a DRCE or other symmetrical head but that "doesnt look like a buick" then again neither one will fit under your stock GS hood and work with a factory air cleaner so i guess your all SOL....
     
  17. mild2wild

    mild2wild Well-Known Member

    I applaud TA for stepping up with the new block. providing racers with a good foundation for building Buick horsepower. Might be more costly than a SBC, but it ain't another belly button car either. Buick fast WITH Class!
     
  18. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    People, you don't even realize how cylinder heads cost to do prototype, do ya? I do, I have written every cylinder head designer and maker out there and they all told me 20k to do simple stereo lithography, and if it is not correct, oh well your fault! I have talked to mike at TA Performance about this, ask him. I have several drawings and no one wants to do a computer simulation to see if they would work. By my calculations , my heads would out flow anything ever produced for Buick, vary close to 550 to 600 c.f.m. and have the right swirl and velocities it needs. The computer program for making computer generated cylinder heads is not cheap, $1200 for it. Good luck. But there is a guy out there that can make you any type of head you want out of billet aluminum his name is Jim Hempfiers, he'll take any cylinder head design you want and transform it to your engine, They even do the valve train for ya. so there is no guess work. again good luck. Call Brodix Cylinder heads and ask for the guy's number that does Billet heads and he'll give it to ya.
     
  19. bigdwg03

    bigdwg03 Well-Known Member

    check out the new hot rod magazine and this thread on YB http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=783874
    I called and he said he has heads available NOW with buick bolt pattern 2499 a set plus 400 for custom valve locations, its a "head porters head" he said as it will have tiny peanut ports so you can develop ports for your individual combos. His info is in his sig for those of you who want a head now.
     
  20. GS Kubisch

    GS Kubisch THE "CUT-UP" BUICK

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