Not correct. They sell for roughly the same price. There might be $200 difference depending on the vendor. The LQ-4 is 9.4:1 and the LQ-9 is 10:1. Not correct. The bellhousing bolt pattern is the same old Chevy bolt pattern they have always had. A $60 Flyweel/spacer assembly off of any vehicle equipped with a 4l80E allows you to run any old school auto trans. Not Correct. The swap parts supply and support for this motor in 64-72 A-bodies is far greater than the Buick 455 Support. There are many many sources of motor mount kits, headers and more. The reality is that you will need a custom oil pan. They cost $400. Motor mount adapters from Eldelbrock are $80 Headers are available in about a dozen configuration depending on your preference. They start at about $375 but the good stainless Edelbrocks are are $575. Is is worthy to note that I plan to make 450 HP with plain old truck exhaust manifolds that fit right in the a-bodies. You will need a new fuels system. They don't need any fancy wiring. If you are going with fuel injection, you can use a junk yard harness. The engine/trans harness is completely separate from the body harness and computer, so no problems there. If you wish to run a carburetor like I am, MSD sells a plug and play computer for $300. Plug it in and you are done. You can use the stock accessory drive from the junkyard. Corvette accessory drives fit and look the best. But, truck drives will also work. Some people have used Camaro accessory drives but, the power steering is very close to the steering box. It is more research work and more planning to retrofit an LSX compared to a car that is already equipped with a 455. But, as far as cost goes. The LSX is so much cheaper it is not a contest. With the quote I got from Jim and others, it was going to cost over $9,500 to get a 455 in my 65. I will have $3,500 to get this LQ9 in my 65 without header and $4,000 if I decided add headers to my build. That includes everything from the air cleaner to the oilpan. Intake, carb, fuel system, cooling, fully installed and running. Here is a thread on the cost topic: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1346361-average-cost-ls-conversion.html
Wow! It really looks like I opened a can of worms here. By all means, I am not trying to offend anyone. There are many people on this board who have helped me through the years. Especially Jim Wiese. I really want to thank him for all the pointers and advice. My engine did great for me, but there are many things that I would have done different. I was new to the 455 when building it. I used a 75 engine and used the heads, converted them to a stage 1. Not knowing these heads are junk. Then to bump up compression I used a JE 11:1 piston. Now If I were to rebuild this engine, I would like to put a set of aluminum heads on it. If I do that, now I have to much compression to run pump gas. As far as making the LS fit, that is no problem I am a Tool and Die maker. I can easily make mounts, and other brackets. At a car show this summer I saw a 63 special with a LSX in it. It was the coolest thing I ever saw!!!! This thing was nasty and was the talk of the show. For me this Forum was great and I hope to continue to talk to you guys! Jim, I know it might be against what you orginally started this forum for but I think there is alot of interst in the LS swaps. Maybe we could start a new Thread just for the LS swap. Just thinking outloud here. So now I have a lot of 455 parts for sale if anyone is interested in them TA Roller Rockers 1.6 TA Valve cover TA pushrods 9.350" MSD Pro billet Distributor MSD 6AL box JE 11:1 Pistons SP1 Intake If any one wants the Block, It is .038 over, and I have a virgin block as well.
For the purist a Buick in a Buick is the norm. To other people these cars are just another "A" Body. With that thought, the LSX swap makes perfect sense to them. Going that route will keep these cars on the road and viable for a long time with younger generation people and their ideas. I currently have a nice 464 aluminum headed BBB in my GS. If I ever decided to change it I would probably do the LSX swap because of the technology. I like my BBB but you have to be willing to change or you will be left behind. With that said I do think an original car should be kept original. Just my 02. Peace, Mike D.
I hope this did not come as a surprise to you. :grin: This is, after all, a board dedicated to the Buick V8. However, with that said, it has become far more than that. This has become the premier forum for all 60s and 70s Buick owners. It is only because of that fact that we even see such discussions on here at all. Even knowing this, I am surprised that they have not banned me for even speaking LSX sacrilege. As for a specific LSX swap forum............ I am not sure you will get much traction here. This is a great place to talk about your Buick, but you will probably have to hang elsewhere for in depth LSX discussion. While I am on the topic, I feel compelled to thank Jim for this amazing environment he has created for Buick discussion. It is an invaluable resource for me and I will continue to contribute.
First off, vendor for your motor? I was going with a junkyard sourced one to keep the costs down. I'm both poor and cheap p In the "used" world the LQ9 costs bunches more since people think it's so much more amazing then the basic truck motor. You are right though that buying new through Scoggin Dickey or some other vender the price difference isn't really that much. I still say though that if you're planning a stroker build or swapping in forged internals you may as well save some bucks and buy the LQ4. If you want the most drop in and go performance then go with the LQ9. Secondly, I was stuck in t-56 mode which is different between the generations of sbc. For autos the only difference is 1 or 2 bolts holes which aren't used. Good catch on that one. Thirdly I figured the aftermarket support for them A-bodies was already pretty good since it is a Chevelle after all p For us guys with the big cars it's not quite as easy to swap in the gen3/4 since there isn't quite as much support in the aftermarket yet. I would like to see how the truck FEAD system fits in an A-body though. I know in the 91-96 b-body you need to run the LS6 style (also late LS1) manifold and then convert to a car based FEAD system for hood clearence. My buddy had to graft in a hood bump from an Integra to clear the alternator when he used the truck FEAD on his '95 Impala. I'm guessing the old A-bodies had higher hood lines since they had to clear the big air cleaners o No: Keep up the informative posts. Somebody will come to this thread from google in a year and use it to help them plan their build. This way we can keep it all contained and prevent it from being brought up as a new topic every 6 months :TU:
I am as Die Hard Buick as anyone here, I built a 650 hp Stage2 motor only to have a wrist pin fail on me, that was expensive. I had 10g with alot of used parts in that one, girlded, block filled and so on, I used good parts that all matched up. Point is, its racing! I built that motor to beat on, but after that experience usless I win the lottery I wont build something like that anytime soon. I too am contemplating a 6.0 motor for my apollo project. I want to do a local bracket series here and would rather run the piss out of a ls motor than put the wear and tear on my stage2 gs. I am not an engine builder but if I trash a short block on a ls motor I just go the recycler and buy another short block for less than a set of roller rockers for a 455. I spin a rod bearing or something easy on my BB then its usually no less than $2500 rebuild as long as I didnt ruin my block or crank, but I am never that lucky. I plan on having way less than 10g in the entire apollo project. I would like to see an LS section somewhere here.
Bryan and Steven, No, I am not offended personally by the LS swaps.. it's your car, and hot rodding is about individualization of your car for your goals and budget. But we probably won't be having any LS swap catagory on the board here, as there is plenty of that info out there. As Steven said, the orignal intent of the board was to offer info on Buick motors. While it has transformed somewhat into other information regarding the cars themselves, in modification and restoration, I think the "how do I swap a non Buick motor in it" would be unwelcome by the vast majority of members here. Keep one thing in mind on the small motors.. they don't make torque like the big Buicks, and it will take proper transmissions and gearing to make that combo fast, yet street freindly. You need to factor that into your thinking when price is the main consideration. Most of the NA buildups I have seen with the LS type motors in the 500+ range are making that power with some pretty peaky torque curves, up around or past 5000 rpm, and HP peaks closer to 6500.. Here is an example of an LS2 build dyno graph LS2 with L92 heads upgraded cam, L76 EFI intake And compared to a nearly stock small valve 455 I built years ago, 10-1 compression, STG 1 cam, just a good valve job on the heads, and headers. Not hard to see that without the correct gearing, the LS motor will be killed by even a nearly stock 455, in the stoplight to stoplight stuff. Were I building that car, either the 6 speed trans with a low 4 series rear gear, or a OD trans with mid 4 series gears would be the ticket not being dusted into the weeds by Joe Buick's near stock 455.. And even the hi-po Buick stuff, like my Level 2A motor, retains the torque at lower rpm, so it's more in line with the gearing and trans most folks already have. So either the 6 speed manual that these motors often came with in performance cars, or an OD trans with pretty steep gears are in order, when you go to the LS series engines, to maintain reasonable performance. If your putting this in with a 200R4 and 3.73 gears or less, I think your around town driving feel is going to be dissapointing. Sure, it's a 450-500 HP motor at 6300 rpm, but you have to get it there. JW
I bought my engine from LKQ Corp for $1150. It is out of a 2004 Escalade and they claimed 55k. After inspecting it thoroughly, I believe the mileage is accurate. The best place to find your motor is where I found mine: http://car-part.com Just search for 2002 newer Cadillac Escalade or Chevy Silverado with Vin code N. The vin code N designates the LQ9 10:1 345HP motor. I checked once a week for about a month until I found one that was close, a good price and low mileage.
As Jim was saying. This forum is all about the classic Buick powerplants. One of the few on the internet. With the myriad of LS forums all over the internet why do some people think that this would be a better forum if we had a LS section? If you want LS all you have to do is search Google and you'll find thousands of like minded people. Let's face it. Most of the people talking about putting one into whatever car they want are mostly the same people who would have considered installing a SBC just a few years ago because they "work" better. Many, many years ago I considered installing a BBC in my '67 GS because I sent a bearing out in the 430 I had installed. I thought about it for about 1 second after I remembered all the BBC cars I had beaten. Also I thought if I put the BBC engine in then I'd pretty much have a Chevelle with different emblems. I do miss the really old days when you could go to a yard and pick up a good running low mileage 455 for $150. If you want to make your car part of the "corporate" world go ahead. No matter what anybody says it will not be an easy swap and some of the less experienced people contemplating this swap will be longing for the simplicity of a carb and single coil halfway through. It is not a swap for the fainthearted. Like any automotive endeavor add up any costs you think it will be and double it and that will probably be a true reflection of what it will actually cost. One place the LS engine has it made compared to the old school engines of any make is in power production. I would never argue about the power these engines can make because it is truely amazing. If you have to have one so that you can say you have 500-600-XXXX HP then so be it. Too many people worry about HP wars because of all the numbers they read in the rags and then never really use it except for the ocassional smoke show or so they can list it on the "Show Poster" in front of their car. If you're reallly going to use the HP then good for you. If I beat half the LS powered cars I race at the track with my all Buick powered car I'll be happy. I've been racing a long time so I know that no matter how much power you put out somebody always puts out more. I would say that the LS is the new SBC. Have you ever gone to a Street Rod show? As such they will saturate the performance world and become the cookie cutter engine of choice. Just replace the SBC with LS. In a few years guess who's engine will get a second look when you go down a row of cars, be they Chevy, Buick, Olds, or Pontiac, and they are all LS powered except for one with a classic powerplant. Heck a SBC may even look cool then.(Can't really say I've seen a good looking LS engine although a few of the plethora in the mags have come close.) As far as racing regularly goes I think it is reasonable to consider an LS because it will take a beating at higher HP levels than the Buick will over a longer period of time. I know it has been years since I raced regularly and I didn't run as fast and that was enough to put a good beating on the 455. If that is what you need so be it. Just re-read my first paragraph. In closing I'd say 90% of the people who are on this forum don't care if you put an LS or any other brand engine in YOUR car. Just don't expect many who frequent this site to appreciate it. If you want people to fawn over it go to an LS site.
I would just like to personally thank Jim W. for this board! My LSX powered GSX was not everyone's cup of tea but at the same time when the build up was being followed on this website there was alot more positive comments than negative comments and I appreciate that. I own both (LSX powered GSX) and my current project which alot of you are following (455 Powered - Stock Appearing 70 GS Drag Car) Both have there advantages and disadvantages. Since this topic is regarding the LS engines I'll add this: 600 + HP is VERY obtainable without turbos or superchargers. 600 HP is VERY streetable and gas milage will definately be better with the LSX series. The cars weight and weight transfer will be better for those of you interested in 1/4 mile performance. (My GSX LOADED weighs 3,300 pounds) Top that with 600 HP and it's a pretty fun car - and will hold its own on the street and the strip. (With the A/C on) I've had numerous big block 455's in the past and while I still love them it was a struggle to have a 600 + HP 455 that had Great street manners. Yes, it could be driven on the street but the manners were no where near as good as my LSX motor with 600HP. I found myself driving with one foot on the gas and one on the brake so it wouldn't kill at stoplights while in gear. Nit picky stuff but these are some of the reasons I chose to build the GSX with the LS2. And, not that I let her but my wife could easily drive this car. She could NEVER drive my Silver 70 GS because of the poor streetability. I'm not taking sides because I have both and love both for different reasons, just wanted to mention some of the positives of the LSX motors. As mentioned I also have a 455 powered car and if I had to get rid of one or the other, I'd probably sell the LSX/GSX first. I love the car but deep down inside I still consider myself a diehard Buick guy and would have to keep the 455 Powered GS. Swapping to an LSX motor is a tough call, at least it was for me. We as Hot Rodders may not like somebody else's ride or ideas but THIS is what Hot Rodding is all about. The advancements of drivetrain technology have advanced so much in the last few years that alot of us would like to take our Musclecar here or there but find it easier to just hop in the daily driver and go about our business. It's sad but true. Our cars probably don't see the road as much these days as they did say 10 - 15 years ago when the technology was more similar. Now days with all the creature comforts and drivetrain advancements most of us find it easier or more convenient to take the daily driver and save the Musclecar for another day or a different situation. If adding some of this modern technology gets us to drive them more, why not ? ? ? Thanks again to Jim for this board and thanks to the guys that have had an open mind regarding the LS discussions. I realize they're not everyone's "cup of tea" - the support (and comments) are appreciated though. .
I like the LS platform, if I wanted to read about it I would go to another forum. At the same time I love to hear more about the Turbo LS Buicks because they are pushing the envelope. I say lets all get allong and who cares what engine is in the car, if it a Buick car I will help... If it is another brand engine I will help if I can. To the people who complain about not being able to find a 455 Buick for a good price.... You just need to look harder, I find them here for cheap all the time... Because I collect Buick 350s so I do not buy any of the 455s but that is not the point... The 455s are out there, collect them while they are available.
As far as prime motivation for an LS swap being MPG I honestly see that as a bit much. Calculate it out and 13MPG and 20MPG aren't really a bank breaking difference if this is your hobby and this is what you enjoy. For the average commuter it makes no sense to drive an escalade to work if you are happy cruising in a metro but If you love muscle and older cars then I think the extra $50 a month (Assuming 600 miles a month) in gas is worth it. As for power differences the motors bring about power in two different ways. I honestly don't think I want to give up the low end torque just for a few more hp up top or even a gain in streetability. If you thought it out and talked to a few people I am sure it is possible to build a streetable, powerful 455 for a fair price. Thats what will bring about change are those who take the unorthodox route vs the mainstream approach. Build a powerful car with streetability in mind and I am sure the gaps can be bridged closely to what you goal is with an LS motor. That being said the LS is an amazing motor and it can be more efficient and streetable than a 455 anyday, but it is also from the late 90's while the 455 hails from the 70's. If there wasn't improvement in that time frame I would be afraid for the future of performance vehicles.
Please Just Say NO to an LS Section!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every damn magazine, other sites are loaded with them. This site is chalked full of peoples life long experiences with Buicks, trials & errors, racing etc. and all of this has made the BBB live and be a mark that you had better not take lightly in todays inovated computer controled world. Dont let all of this "antique, outdated" wizdom go away.......... v8 BUICK --- Hell Yes!
No arguing that the BBB will have a flat torque curve the whole way. But, I think comparing engines dyno's to chassis dyno's is apples and oranges. Take a look at any of the graphs of the stock LS motors to see what I'm talking about. Here's an LS3...torque curve looks pretty flat. And just for a more even comparison as far as cubes go, here's the LS454 available as a crate from GM.
i am an 'old world' guy. i won't change because there ARE too many 7-11 cars, magazines, parts, etc around. you don't even have to think to build a 7-11 car. why have the same boring thing as everybody else? it becomes robotic. as far as modern technology, i dont use much of that either. i still run a points distributor. i make my own intake systems because nobody else does. and i dont care how fast it runs. i build to prove it can be done for a BUICK.
I'm not a purist or a restomod guy, but I figure everything has its place. Here's how my story went. Had a '95 Caprice with the gen2. Got sick of chasing electrical issues and dealing with expensive sensors. Sold it to a friend who blew up the trans and then sold it to someone else. That was the 2nd car I had with a 4l60e that was either dying or dead by the time the car left me. The money from the '95 financed the purchase of an '84 Buick Lesabre with the 307/200-4r combo. No electronic trans and no fancy sensors to run the fuel injection and I was happy. I planned on putting in either a turbo 3.8 or a 455 since it would be fun and it would make the car all Buick, but I lost patience after a rotten A-pillar caused the windshield to crack. Scrapped it. The downside to this car was it had the ccc system, which I discovered after I brought it home, so there was still a dang computer to deal with. Even in the early 80's GM used computers to control things. The money from the '84 plus the money I made selling left over parts from the '95 got me my current '73 Buick Electra with the 455/th400 combo. The car's a wreck in some places and almost mint in others. But the best thing is that there's not a single computer controlled anything in the whole car. If it wasn't for the power seats/windows this car would be perfect. So engine wise I went from 263 to 307 to 455, but I also went from multipoint to computer controlled carb to full on mechanical. For me I'd rather the big cubes and monster torque then the tempermental sensors and wiring. I drive in all temps and all weather conditions and plastic sensors don't tend to enjoy the huge temp swings or being expossed to road salt 6 months out of the year.
Jason, That graph came from this article, and it's not a chassis dyno. http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0702gm_ls2_engine_l92_heads/dyno_test.html My point was that you need the cubes to make the torque, which your second graph supports... JW
I guess "the other guys section" would be an appropriate place if someone wanted. Todd, thanks for your input since you have real world experience on both sides.
Ahh okay. I don't mean to be argumentative, I just wish we could have our cake and eat it too. But since, we're on the subject: If YOU were to build an BBB engine specifically for gas mileage and a horsepower goal of 450-500, what would you do? Would a custom ground can be in order? Possibly include the 4/7 swap? Perhaps, MPFI on an Edelbrock intake? Alum heads? Higher (10.8-11.0) compression ratio? Which transmission would you choose to accompany the engine? Torque converter? Possibly destroke to a 430 or 400 (less cubes = less fuel???) I know it's asking a lot to bench race those kinds of things, but I can only read so many books. I think it's important to gain knowledge from the people that actually build the engines and do the work.
