Well guy I had a horrible weekend. My 464 finally gave up. Nothing major I think. Cam bearings and 1 cylinder is down. I got to thinking, 7 years ago when I built this engine, I was so excited to be putting a 455 in my 65 skylark. In fact, price didn't matter. $6000.00 for 500hp later I was the talk of the town. I had to only 65 buick with a Buick Big Block. Now looking back, I spent a whole lot of money for very old technology. I have come to the conclusion that my time with the nose heavy big block is over. A friend of mine has a 67 camaro with a LS1. Bought out of a salvage yard to $2200.00. He put a cam, headers, intake, on this thing and is making 350 hp at the tire. This is unbelievable. :TU: So I started comparing. The buick 455 will one day be very hard to find parts for. There won't be blocks just laying around. They are 2 blot mains, bad oiling system, and up until TA performance made a great Aluminum head, they had nothing. They cost a lot of money to build. With the LS series motor, they come with a 6 bolt main, many head options, and the parts are a fraction of what buick parts are. I guess I concluded that to build a 600 hp buick engine, you would need a block girdle, lifter girdle, steel crank, rods, a nice set of heads. and would probally cost around $8000.00 to build. On the other hand a LS engine can make 600 hp with stock components, add a cam, intake and carb and be built for a fraction of the cost. I like to keep up with technology. If I had a numbers matching car, I would not go this route. But I am building a street car. I hope this doesn't offend anyone, in fact I hope maybe one day there will be a new Board. Maybe "LS ENGINE SWAP" I think this is an increasing and exciting new frontier. :3gears: Bryan
I think as more people catch on to this especially the younger crowd it will become THE swap for these cars. Just my 02. Peace,Mike D.
Welcome to my world Bryan! It was no easy decision for me. The Buick 455 has always been my favorite since I was a teenager. For years I reveled in beating people with my "Brick" motor. Truth be told, I would have a 455 sitting on the stand right now in my garage instead of the LQ9 if not for the cost. The cost is what made me open to the LS series engines. Then, once I started to read about them, the more it was impossible for me to ignore the amazing opportunity that they provide. So, here I am. Most of the people that I have most in common with don't like my motor choice. I still consider BuickV8.com my "home forum". But, I also spend time on LS1Tech.com sharing info and learning about my new motor. Motor aside, BuickV8.com is still the best source of information I have ever found on 60s and 70s Buicks. And, the guys are great too. I guess as long as our friends here don't lynch us, we can still hang out here. :TU:
I am part of the younger croud. I am 27 years old. The LQ9 is what I am looking to build. I am going to put a forged piston in it though and maybe a cam around the 230 or 240 duration mark. Intake and carb for me. I think it is much easier to tune.
Bryan 600HP? That doesn't require anything more than a good shortblock with a cast factory crank, the correct flat tappet hydraulic cam and a good set of heads. I have built plenty of them.. no girdles, no roller cams, no worries.. Maybe if your goal is 700 HP, then what your saying about the LS vs the 455 would be a better argument. ------------------- Overall, yes, the latest Small Block Chevy is a good engine, just like the first one was back in it's day. But let's not be confused about what it really is. It is the updated version of that very famous engine. And when using cost as the main decision point for a buildup, it has always been the best cost option to build a more common engine. That hasn't changed in 40 years. The only thing that has changed is now we have junkyards that are starting to fill up with the latest small block chev. If that's the route your taking, that's fine with me, but there will always be a large segment of the Buick faithful that will never put anything but a Buick powerplant in their classic Buick. And the promotion of those engines is why I started this board. It was harder to find tech info and share war stories, for those of us who resisted the urge to build a BBC back in the 90's, when aluminum heads for them were dime a dozen, and complete 500 HP BBC engines could be had for $3500.. The decision to stick with the "antique" Buick powerplants, to preserve the pedigree of our cars, is a conscious effort to preserve our heritage, that has formed a bond between the members here. While there is always room to grow and evolve as a group, it is that common bond that is at the core of what has made this community be as strong as it is. Good luck with your project. JW
I agree with jim,if you guys can't make 600 reliable hp you have the wrong engine builder/machine shop!
Well, for those of us who drive their cars everyday, I would rather have a 600hp engine that gives me 16/25MPG vs a 600hp engine that gives me 9/13mpg. Hell, I don't even think my BBB is making 450hp and I can't coax 10mpg out of her...and I have fuel injection. THAT'S why I want to put an LS in my car. You know, all the vendors who have poured tons of money into making out BBB's more powerful have yet to take steps to make them more efficient. I'm confident that with alum heads, multi-port fuel injection and most importantly, a cam developed to maximize the gains seen with MPFI, we could see much better gas mileage. But, since a majority of people only care about going faster, I don't see it happen. Hence the reason why some of us find the idea of switching to LS motors so appealing.
Hi Jason, Just curious as to what kind of LS motor your building? 600 HP and 25 mpg is a tall order in a 72 Riv.. Reason I ask is your the second guy to say something about a 600 Hp LS, and as I understand it, that either takes forced induction, or a pretty expensive NA stroker combo. JW
That is a monster tall order. The tests I have seen on these engines say that a cam only junkyard LQ4 or LQ9 is good for 450HP. A cam only L92 headed motor is good for a little over 500Hp. Here is an article where a L92 headed ls2 made 550Hp 230 degree duration camshaft. http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0702gm_ls2_engine_l92_heads/dyno_test.html Here is a similar article: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0705_chevrolet_ls2_l92_cylinder_heads/index.html While the engine in this test was an LS2 with l92 heads added, both the l92 engine and the slightly smaller ly6 cam deliver similar results. Those two motors cam be bought at salvage yards for about 1500 with some shopping. As for 25 mpg in a 4500lb Riviera with a cammed up L92.................... that is real optimistic seeing how your average Silverado equipped with the Ly6 might get 20 MPG on the highway. Although I admit that the Silverado is probably 5000+lbs.. http://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/09/26/chevy-silverado-gas-mileage/
I to am going the with a LS. My goal is 500hp to the wheels with forced induction. I would like to get at least 20MPG. I figure I can always go back to a buick engine if im not happy with it.
I'm not trying to bash the LS engines by no means so dont take this out of text. I street race. I race the green pos in my sig. It has iron heads with the big sbc valves and if you build an LS motor in the 500 - 650HP range or Ford mod motor, then I have something for you. Yes granted I spent a little more to get there in the begining, but, it was well worth it. The satisfaction I get is something that I cant put into words. I abuse my 455 with the intentions of pulling it apart every winter to check/see what's going on inside. Just the same as the LS/SBC guys do, that's why it's a hobby. I run NO power adders at all. I have the torque on my side and so far, it has worked out very well. My car the way it sits bald M/Ts & all is guaranteed good for mid 11s. Not bad for an "out dated big POS" that these guys are still trying to out run. I dont have a rundown on all the specs, numbers that others on here have to compare the differences. All I have to go on is real street experience with my out dated Buick. And I'm ok with that :TU:
I'm not currently building an engine for the Riv right now. However, I'm in the process of installing a MP112 on my stock LS2 in my 06 GTO. With the 8-10lbs of boost i plan on making, I expect to see anywhere from 450-475rwhp with a very safe tune. Add headers and I'm at 500rwhp. That's easily 600 at the crank. That's on a stock engine that will last well over 100,000 miles. Based on what others have gotten with this combo, I expect my gas mileage to go from the 18/27 I get now to MAYBE 16/25 at the worst and that's IF i beat on it everyday. Now granted, the GTO isn't 4400lbs and has better aerodynamics, but the point is, is VERY easy and VERY cheap to get 600 crank hp with an LS motor and still have the great gas mileage. If i put the same engine and trans combo into the Riv, not only would I lose a lot of weight off the nose, but the power, mileage, and smooth driving associated with the LS motors would make it a very fast car. Think about this, the CTS-V is 200lbs less than the Riv is with essentially a 550 crank hp engine and runs 12's in the 1/4 and gets 14/19 for mpg. That doesn't seem high, but compared to 9/13 it's phenomenal. After all that, I don't WANT a 600hp engine for the Riv. 500 would be as high as I'd want to go. My point is, if just a small portion of all the effort and time spent on making these engines more powerful were spent to make them also efficient (mpg wise) I don't think many would even consider the LS as an option. And finally, yes, it will take F/I or big cubes to get 600hp out of an LS motor. If you buy everything new, you'll spend probably just as much on a 600hp LS build as you would for a 600hp BBB. But you will have an engine combo that is lighter and gets better gas mileage (at least if you go F/I). I'm trying the BBB route first because for me, its already in the car. I'm happy with the performance I just would like to see better mileage. I've got a 200-R4 ready to go in whenever I have the money to install it and i'd like to get alum heads and an MPFI setup. Maybe, I'll eventually get a custom cam ground for me to maximize efficiency.
I can relate. My love for Buicks started with the BBB. It was a BIG decision for me to go the LS route on my new project but it was the only feasible way to get where I want to go which will be in excess of 1500hp. http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=212640
Study up more before you spend. The LQ9 costs 5 times as much as an LQ4 and the only difference is higher compression. If you're doing a piston change anyway then just get a LQ4 and save yourself a couple grand. And for those thinking it's a cheaper alternative it's really not. My buddy just swapped an LT1 for a 5.3 and it's costing him a ton. And remember that the LT1 is a Chevy multipoint injected v8. After the engine you need the accesory drive that'll work in your car. Then you need a custom oil pan or custom work done to the engine crossmember. Then you need the mounts to be able to install the engine. Then you need to put in a modern fuel system to handle the fuel injection. Then you need to put in stronger wiring to handle the current needed to run the motor. Electronic cars don't like weak wiring or small batteries. Then you need to swap in the matching trans or adapt a non-electronic trans. The Gen3/4 uses a different bellhousing bolt pattern from any other GM engine ever made so any non-Gen3/4 trans would need to use the correct adapter and torque converter. Then you need the custom driveshaft. Then you need the pcm and wiring to make it all work. Don't forget the custom built exhaust since only the (roughly) 68-72 a-bodies have aftermarket support for that engine. Shop as if you have a Chevelle SS. At the least you'll need headers since there's no point doing the swap and then running the stock manifolds. Add up all of those things, then consider that the starting point. If you run into any snags then price out the things you need and add it in. If you're thinking of some custom cam or head work then that comes later. I've yet to see someone pull off the swap for under $5k. The only way to do it cheap is to start with a car that already has the gen1/2 chevy v8 and also has good aftermarket support. Then get a donor car, pull the drivetrain, sell what's left to recoup your costs. This method is affordable but will take some time. If you have the money to spend though you can't beat a magnacharger on an LQ4. That engine comes from the factory with the perfect compression to run a blower :TU:
Agreed on all the above so to me the smart way to do it still is to buy a complete engine/tranny setup along with the computers etc. These LS engines are impressive and tuning is way, way easier with modern computer controlled cars...you can watch in real time and adjust as required once you get it sorted out how it all works. Friend has a 99 TA with twin turbos on a 408 stroker iron block, should be 1000 hp or, the thing is insane and wasn't even bad to set up (I helped via e-mail no less with tweaking the tune). That said my cars will stay Buick engine as long as I can (until legislated off the road or I can't find parts anymore) If I built a rod it would be a a no brainer to go new tech. There has been 40 years of progress since 1970, you can't ignore that. All IMHO of course.
:gp: I'd have to agree; - modern technology is a no-brainer if you want to keep things cheap, and there's no comparing a modern SBC to a 40 year old Buick design. For some of us, the fun is in keeping these old beasts alive and healthy despite being reviled as dinosaurs and boat anchors. My personal take on these old engines is I'd rather have a Buick in a Buick, and if I was building a rod, then I would look at something more modern with all the bells and whistles. Chances are though, I'd probably still use a nailhead in a rod...just can't get Buick out of my system...
I'm thinking middle road. Buick engine, a FAST EZ-EFI kit, and a TH 200-4R trans. The LSX swaps seem to be all the rage lately but I'm cheap. I figure if I'm getting 14mpg on the highway with a 350/TH350 and 3.42 gears I should be able to get a bit more than 20mpg with the EZ-EFI/200-4R.
