If it's burning up #3 it's not maintaining that 100 psi through out the run! 12 quarts didn't help me either. Jims right it won't show up on a gage it will show up on a data logger Dave
It doesn't have 100 psi at any time other than cold start. It idles at 45 and goes down the track at 85. Rob was mistaken.
Dave do you run alot of oil Pressure? In the Old Steve L Dove book they say 5000 47 5500 53 6000 60 6500 68 7000 76 7500 85 8000 94 We went to the Main Oiling Mod and then plugs in the Main oil Galley .060 front and Back 2 allens with 2 .060 holes in both Plugs. We would like to run a smaller hole in the Plug. Seem like a lot oil coming thru that .060 hole. We never restricted the the Driver side of the Block in the front or the back on the Driverside We like to go to some smaller Holes in the Pushrod. the holes in the Smith Brother Pushrods seem a little to big
I've been trying to post some pdf's with graph's and histograms from my data logger but they are too large to post here. One is from my wet sump with similar oil psi as Doug was running , the other is from my dry sump. Dry sump fluctuates as well but stays above 100 psi through out the run. I oil the passanger side top of the motor through one .060 orifice. If you run a roller cam with no groove in the front journal and TA grooved bearings the oil will be sufficiently restricted through the front bearing groove you don't need to do anything else on that side. If it's done right you can check it by pulling any pair of lifters out of the motor while running the oil pump , you should drop less than 5 psi.If you use the plugs push rod holes don't matter. Dave
Dave What you are saying is this is not a good way to do it 2 Restricters on the Passenger Main Oil Galley front and Back should we should Restricted the Driverside oil galley front of the block only and the 3 center Main with a Restrictor. Is there any down side to the way we did it?
Dave, do you think 100 PSI is the minimum amount of oil pressure to overcome the # 3 Rod burning? Along with Drilling the main bearings and grooving the block to, is there anything else we can do? :blast: Also, do you think that billet stroker crank that we use in Doug's motor, harder to oil then the stock crank in my 485 motor? I have not lost # 3 ever in my motor, and I have the same oil pump and no other major oil mods to the block? Just the TA grooved cam bearings and I use an oil accumulator to stabilize the pressure on shutdown!! I shift at 7000 and go threw the lights at 7100 RPM. Thanks, Rob
Rob, You can have 200 psi but if the oil stream to the bearings is not large enough then you will never have enough oil. At 7600 rpms I go through the traps at 90 PSI. Assuming the rod journals in your engine are the same size as the journals in Doug's at 2.200. Doug's will require more oil to keep the bearing floating symply because the bearing speeds in his engine are higher because of the difference in crank stroke. I am feeling wayyyy to lazy right now to do the math but its quite a difference. If the rod journals are different.. example... his is 2.200 and yours are 2.100 then the 2.200 will need 5% more oil to keep it floating. Then when you factor the difference in RPM. I read somewhere that you go through the traps at 7200 and Doug goes through at 7600. Again more oil needed. Bushing the the lifter bores to me makes way to much sense. I know in the past it didn't make sense but now we have lifter galley girdles. But if you bush the lifter bores then you must go to overhead oiling to replace the oil volume lost because of the narrowing of the main oil passage. Is there a difference in the amount of vacuum you two are pulling? I keep the vacuum below 10. Just enough to help things sealed. The extra few HP you get over 10 inches of vacuum is not worth it. I also looked at the camshaft specs in your engine.. I think it was 275/284 on a 109 lca. Thats a nice camshaft for your CID. Doug should have a cam that is 284/290 on atleast a 112 lca. If he doesn't have it then he will build to much cylinder pressure. Chamfered oil holes make a huge difference. Rod side clearance should be a bit looser to allow the oil to flow freely. If they are tighter then you will have more oil pressure but less volume flowing through the bearings. Main oil galley pressurized from both side and the driverside oil galley blocked with a plug that has a .125 hole to supply the lifters. Thats all thats needed. If my memory is correct, when talking with and Dennis Manner he claimed the extra oil holes in the mains could in itself almost double the amount of oil to the rods. I will do this modification to ALL Buick engines I am involved with! I have had my engine for a few years now. Many of those passes were in the 70 GS running 8.80s and going through the traps at 7400-7600 rpms. And since I made these mods Ihave never had a #3 bearing issue. I hope this helps! I really hate to see anyone lose an engine!!! They are wayyyy to costly. Later
John, for whatever reason, this year it was running through the beams at 7200, not 7600. I was using my 8-inch convertor, which you would think would be looser than my 9-inch, but it ran slightly less rpm this time around. I can't imagine it's because it's a 523" now instead of 525". That would be silly. Same tires too.
Jeff not sure what your asking me but you can get enough oil to the passenger side through one .060 hole. If your running a roller cam and TA grooved bearing you don't need to do anything on the drivers side. No restriction to the mains ! Rob I think if you have a good consistant supply you can get away with less than 100 psi , particularly if your rpm is only around 7,000. I won't run less than 100 psi in my application. I agree with John the stroker is a little more demanding but stock cranks do it too. I do think the steffs oil pan Doug has is shallow for a wet sump application and prone to windage problems if it was built like mine , that may be why 12 quarts didn't help. John's comment about side clearance could be a contrbuting factor to this also.If you want to talk about what I have done PM me. John I don't understand why you would bush the lifters if you were going to overhead oiling? Also the cross sectional area of the stock cam groove and or cam bearing grooves is significantly less than that of the .125" hole, you need to make it smaller to really restrict oil to that side of the motor. Dave
Thanks John and Dave, I Know my vacuum is limited at 12 psi! I agree its not worth the extra 5 HP to loose oil pressure. I also know Doug's vacuum is higher but I don't know how much!! I also do not have Doug's cam specs!! I do know it has more lift then I run!! The higher you lift those roller lifters the more oil leaks out the bottom of the bore!! :shock: He has used this cam for a long time and its been threw a few blow-ups!!ou: I agree that the mains need to be grooved and bearings drilled, but I don't see how lifter bushings can fit in that thin lifter bore!! Even with the girdles they BREAK!! Is there any other way to limit the oil bleed off? My rod side clearance is .020 but THIS MOTOR DOES NOT HAVE GROOVED MAINS OR DRILLED BEARINGS!!:spank: If I keep the RPM's under 7200 like before I should be OK?ou: Or should I pull it out and drill and chamfer the block/bearings over the winter? Thanks again, Rob
Sure Rob, that's what were are doing with the overhead oiling.. You drill all the way up thru the center 3 bearings, then press 3 tubes in past the location of the main oil galley on the RH side.. Then install a plug with a .060 hole in it, in the front of the LH galley, past the point where it feeds the front main.. IN the rear of the engine, we are installing another 1/4 plug, past the hole where it feeds the rear main, and the rear main is fed from a line from your oil supply, thru fittings in the back of RH galley. Oil for the three center main bearings is then fed in thru the front of the block, and thru a manifold system or individual lines, to the center 3 mains. This effectively removes the oil from the RH galley, which is subject to the bleed caused by roller lifters when trying to feed the mains, and just provides enough oil in that galley for lubrication of the lifters, and the Passenger side top end of the engine. Now, Mike has some new fully shrouded roller lifters.. are you running those? I have been interested to try a set, to see if this eliminates the bleed, but have not had an occasion to. This is mostly a problem with the roller cams with the .425 or .430 lobe on them.. When I put George's motor back together this winter, I will take some pics and post them.. JW
I am running Mikes offset roller lifters that are shrouded? I don't know if he has made them better again, mine are about 1 year old? I know my lobe lift is .419 so it helps bleed off, Doug's roller camshaft on the other hand is much larger!!ou:
Dave, I know I am getting lazy in my old age because I never did the math on this .125 hole issue.:spank: .125 dia divided by 2 = .0625 .0625 x .0625 = .0039 3.14 x .0039 = .0122 Where as the cam bearing groove is... .030 x .200 = .006 So the .125 restrictor hole is double the size of the oil groove in the bearing. Boy do I feel silly. Thank you for pointing this out to me!! Also Dave... The over head oiling was an afterthought when we realized that bushing the lifter bores restricted the oil flow through the main lifter galley. I send oil from the oil pump to a y block then to rear of the main lifter galley and the oil sending unit entry. This way I dont have to put the oil access at the top of the block near the distributor. Rob, I dont know the exact thickness of the bronze bushing in my block But I can say they are thin!! The oil hole going through the bushing and into the lifter is rather tiny. I dont know the exact size. This also allows me to buy roller lifters that are much less expensive than the Buick specific lifters. The lobe lift on my cam is .406 intake and .392 on the exhaust. There is a great deal of very good information here... Thanks to all who have added to this subject!!!
Hey John I don't think your off by that much if your lucky the oils flowing around both sides of the bearing and fully lined up with the holes in the block then your only off by a couple. Regardless, the bearing groove provides sufficient restriction to the drivers side. You can pull all the lifters out of that side of the block without a significant loss of oil pressure. I know a .125" hole won't restrict much oil, thats what I started with on the passanger side , one at each end of the oil gallery in fact . Waste of time, droped to .080's then.060's now one .060 is all I use . I can pull all the lifters out of the motor without significant loss of oil pressure, still plenty of oil to top of motor. Rob sorry if I caused any confusion I think I was mixing John's overhead oiling with a priority oil system , everything I am refering to relates to a priority system which Jim did a better job of describing. Too many oil posts lately, cant keep them all straight at my age. With regards to roller lifters, the older unshrouded lifters are what drove me to the priority system. I ran an oil pump with drill watching oil pressure while turning the engine over by hand. you could see the oil pressure rise and fall as the lifters went up and down. The worst offenders were the third and forth back from the front of the motor passanger side, they are both open at close to the same time and hemorage more because the oil gallery on that side is bigger dia 1/2 way back in the block. Dropped 10-15 psi on the stand! (suspiciously close to #3 ) More lobe lift and duration worse it got. current lobe 448/436 Dave
Thanks Dave, Jim, and John !!:beers2: This post is really important to anyone building a Buick race engine. I learned how to save Doug's next 1....I HOPE...:TU:
Rob it is crazy you have not lost a Engine or Two with out doing these Mods to the oil System you must be riding on better luck. Than my Dad and myself We have main Saddles groved two extra Holes in each Main bearing. Everything talked about above just no bushed lifter bores. We run a Peterson single stage wet sump Pump on the Engine in my Car. My Dad runs a Scavenger Pump Housing with short gears. He makes as good of Oil Pressure as mine does with my external Pump with the Scavenger.
My oil Pressure used to be all over the place on the Gauge with a Roller Cam before these oil Mods it was only 380 lobe lift. We are at 445 lobe lift now. Vavle Springs with 280 on the seat 850 open. I am a Dealer for Master Lube there Preoiler work very good a Preoiler is a must with that much Vavle Spring Pressure you defently don't want a dry start with that much Pressure on the Cam Bearings. This is grate info from everyone on this Post to bad there wasn't a Post a long time a go about oil Mods. There would have been more Buick Roller Cam Motors Still running and not Blown up Engine Blocks. Buick Racers would Saved alot of Money and Blocks Thats you some of use have been wanting to get away from the Factor Buick Engines. No Primary Main Oiling. When they get those Aftermarket Blocks in to Product thinks will change for the Buick Racers that want to Purchase a Block. Support all the venders that will sell them and Purchase one or there will be a very short run of them. I no there are alot of BUICK Racers that would like to to Purchase a Aftermarket Block Like Chevy,Ford,Mopar people can. I no I would like to give them a taste of there own medicine. They like talking Smack because they have a Stronger Block and they make more power than use and can Run more RPM
I know nothing, should say nothing. I will tho, Scotty (Scotty's Performance Tech) and Mike T/A any input? I really want to hear the guru (Scotty) chime in on this:SmartyI go with the B'KLYN BOY! 4 engines and counting for me and SPT (Pretty good Pretty good!!)
Scotty blew # 3 rod out of his motor EVERY TIME!!ou: I think the last 1 went 4 runs at Salem Ohio!!Thats why he switched to Chevy motors!!:eek2: Ask him yourself!!
After finally stripping Doug's block I found a cracked lifter bore!!!:ball: The bore is cracked right over #3 main!! This picture is hard to see it, but the lifter was pushed to the side of the crack, and the TA lifter bore girdle was just holding it enough to stop the total loss of the lifter.It had to be leaking alot of oil pressure to that main. I think this is why # 3 main was not getting the full oil pressure it needed!!!:Smarty:
