I know this sounds extreme,but if you could get bearing shells that are .050 -.100 thicker the existing groove could be enlarged to get more oil around the bearing w/o putting oil behind it,of course the crank would have to be turned .100-.200.Is something like this possible,would it weaken the crank too much,or could a custom crank be used,are thicker shells availible,in other words is something like this possible or worthwhile or am i crazy.
Doug: You have two choices here.. Groove the main saddles/drill the bearings Priority oil the mains via overhead oiling as you have seen in a few threads here lately, and run at least 100 psi of oil pressure. Or wait for a new Block.. With Sweesy's 860 HP engine, the only issue we have had that is block related is that it beats the main caps off it.. we went to billet caps which hopefully will give it better longevity. It has all these other goodies, and we have no main or rod bearing issues. But when I was in development of this engine from a 740 Hp 494, to it's current configuration, we did a lot of dyno and inspection work, and found that for us, after about 780 Hp it started to hurt the number 3 rod, even with a "conservative" 13-1 compression ratio. The only way I could cure that was to get with Mike at TA on the main grooves and drilled bearings, and then with Dave Mongeon on his overhead oiling deal.. and that cured those problems. We unfortunatly had an issue recently with over-reving the engine due to some missed shifts and driving thru the converter, and valve float cost us a couple pistons and damaged a head, so I have it apart again for repair, but we had great luck with the mains and rods. Remembering now that the engine is 15-1 compression, and with the power it is making, I am very happy with the rod bearing condition. But unfortuantly 645 lbs of spring pressure over the nose, this roller cam with the .430 lobe profile the heavier 2.260 intake valves don't go very well with 7400 rpm.. the exhaust valves and pistons get a little to comfortable with each other, to have a good day.. I also used Calico Coated ACL Mains and rods in this engine, and am very happy with them. I have found that the hardness of the Clevite race bearings is not always your friend.. I would recommend them for your next build, if you decide to sink another load of cash into a station wagon block.. In fact George hurt his motor the same day you popped yours, so it must have been a "bad karma day" for the more exotic Buick race engines. This motor has been making over 800 Hp since '02, and it's the first time we hurt it in the car. Good luck, let me know if I can help at all, but I think most of the info is on the board here. JW
Jim, I understand your concern, and shared it when I first went to this setup.. but it's not a problem. Bearing crush is sufficient, and if your slots are deep enough, even 130+ PSI won't hurt the bearing. That modification was originally come up with by Denny Manner. What I have found is that the size of the extra bearing holes can greatly affect oil pressure, I have done quite a few motors with this mod now, and have varied the size of those holes from 3/16 all they way down to 1/8, and you can see quite a reduction in oil pressure, especially on engines that don't have an external oil pump. I recall one 700 HP 494 that is used in Super gas, that I reduced the hole size on, during a freshen up, and we did see a considerable gain in oil pressure. I would think a slot would cause too much bleed, and possibly compromise the bearing integrity, of this particular bearing. JW
That is the 64,000 dollar question. If I do an old block it'll get ALL the oil mods that were mentioned, NONE of which are guaranteed to keep another rod from hitting the eject button and destroying all that handsome work. o No:
my advice is park it until GOOD parts are available..... do something else, take up another hobby, learn pole dancing, fishing, wallygagging, tennis, or something even cheaper, believe me, I had 5 boats recently, all at the same time, and that combined was still cheaper than racing 1 Buick :dollar: :bglasses:
Well, you know Doug, that's true of anything we are going to go out and pound the death out of.. to some extent.. We see exotic nascar and NHRA Pro Stock motors let go, and they want for nothing, when it comes to blocks and hard parts. It happens.. and the only way to prevent it for sure it to quit racing. You need to start looking for a block to use.. very few will actually do.. George's sonic check is 40% better than any one I have ever seen.. except for two small spots in line with the pin, all the cylinders are over .200 everywhere.. I have a pile of blocks here, if you want to invest the cash I can pick thru them and find the one with the biggest lifter bores and least core shift, and haul it over for a sonic check.. finding the right block to start with is one of the most important aspects here. Yours is a tough deal.. because you know as well as I do you get a new block from Mike, and your gonna want to go faster.. which means bigger cubes, better heads, different cams, intake and all that other fun stuff.. and your sitting there with 90% of the parts to put that thing back together, as opposed to some guy starting from scratch, and when you do finally upgrade and get all new stuff to go faster, that would make a nice "spare".. or make a nice sale to help pay for all that shiny new aluminum. But I really think that most of us doing hardcore stuff have identified the root cause of your latest deal there, and how to prevent it. Dave's been making lots of HP and racing a lot for the last few years, and it's working for him, no reason you can't do the same. One thing we have done on the bigger race stuff in the last few years is to cryo temper the block.. I really believe in it, George's block was done and even with valve heads and seats flying around, it just nicked up one cylinder, and the block will have to have just one sleeve in it.. could have easily punched a hole thru the cylinder, but it didn't. I also really think it's important to strengthen the lifter valley, to compliment Mike's lifter girdle. JW
That block is flimsy looking,i'm impressed guys have gone this far w a fair amount of success.there's no dought these buicks have power potential,for a fast heavy street car I think there is no better.the trick is keepin them together.I'ts definatly time for a block,to many guys are at the limit.
Heee:laugh: :laugh: , just screwing with you Rob I'll see what I can do when I get back from the east coast.........Chris
I have seen BHJ's tool for this purpose. Its made for a small Chevy!!:bla: I guess even Chevy's have oil pressure problems at high RPM's. I think it can be made to work in the Buick. How about it Dougey? Lets put that stinkin' Buick back together and see if we can solve your 30 run block windowing problem ?ou: :moonu:
The thing I don't understand is, I ran this same basic combination in '03 and '04 without blowing up anything. Each of those two years I wound up cracking a cylinder, one year I broke a rocker shaft and a couple of valve springs. But overall, no problems, oiling or otherwise. I put 65 runs on the motor each year and the bearings were perfect after the first season, so we re-used them. That's even after the cracked cylinder leaked water into the oil and I was making milkshakes for the last ten runs. Same thing the following year, except the bearings were a little bit scuffed from two seasons of racing plus milkshakes, so Scotty replaced them. The next two seasons in a row, it blew up after four runs, including last year at Salem, with a solid lifter cam instead of the roller, shifting at 6400 and crossing at 6800. So much for everyone who thinks I blow up because I spin it too high! That ain't it! I made 130 passes over two seasons, shifting at 7000 and crossing anywhere from 7200 to 7600, AND IT LIVED!! If #3 rod bearing is such a problem for the Buicks, why did it seem so happy in the block I was running then? Luck? My personality? Suave good looks?
Maybe that block you had back then was better is some way that it helped this problem? You and I both know that no 2 blocks are the same!! Most are junk, with core shift and pore casting back then?o No: So lets check a few blocks and pick the best 1 we can!!:blast: Don't just invest money in the first block you find for free!!:idea2: That along with some new oiling tricks may make the difference!:beer
Add me to the list of people offering you my spare block Doug ...but I dont think its from a station wagon so you may not be interested
Rob/ Doug, (I posted this over on the BPG board, but I'll post it here too.) Sorry to see this happen. Yes, we need Mike and his sources to really step up the program for the new block!! Just a note on the oil pan. Send me a PM and we can discuss the "repair" of that thing. I know of the very limited budget and I thought that perhaps I can help! Thanks, Steve
Now the problem with Doug's # 3 Rod is an oil starvation problem. The Rod stuck itself to the crank, and just got ripped apart. I think he had about 30 runs on this engine!!o No: The piston was on top of the bore, smacking the head!! Even the wrist pin was ripped from the piston skirt!!:blast: I think the last time Doug was at the track, Atco NJ, he blew the trans!! That sent the engine to the rev limiter 8000 plus!! NO LOAD !! That may have helped this happen!! o No: But there needs to be a better oil system to keep that # 3 rod from burning. I think Dave Mongeon may have a good idea with his oil system mods.ray: I know Doug takes every precaution to keep his engine in 1 piece. The block does flex, and the cylinders do not stay round, but oil presure to that # 3 rod is what killed this engine!! :spank:[/QUOTE] Hey Doug sorry to here the news, trust me I understand your frustration, been there many times. I thought I had a good oil system when I ran my modified pump end housing external filter and the same pan you have. I could build as much pressure as I wanted(I thought) but didn't see what was happening until I put a data collector on the car. Oil pressure was fluctuating and falling off down track and I'd challenge anyone to see it on the gauge. Your probably emptying the pan enough to get air in the system. Like Rob said its an oil problem . Your reliable motor was probably not emptying the pan as bad, tighter clearance's , better return system, better oil restriction to top of motor, many possible contributing factors. How much oil pressure were you running? Like Jim said ,even with all the good stuff there's there's no Guaranties , we're trying pretty hard to brake em. Dave
Dave I agree with you 100%, Its an oil problem.. The only thing I know for sure is that Doug uses 12 quarts of oil in that Stefs pan!!ou: I doubt he is running it dry!! The oil pressure gauge in his car is pinned past 100 PSI also!!:Smarty: He does need a new gauge, I think his is bent!! I don't think its air in the pump either but, the Moroso external oil pump is old, and been through a few motor explosions!!:ball:
air intrusion in the oil is not out of the question, it's very frothy as it's returned to the pan, and it takes a LONG time for the air to dissipate, even after shutdown it could take 10-20 minutes to restabilize, depending on oil brand and weight, to restore it to it's out-of-can texture and clarity... you can still show high pressure at the gauge, even though the oil could be 50% air in content in the line... the gauge doesn't know the difference between air pressure or oil pressure, or a combination of both.. :Smarty:
