1970 GS Stage 1, automatic, numbers matching, Silver Mist.

Marco,
Okay, I may need your help with this Marco. When Jim Jones came to look at my car, he told me it had a casting date of May 23rd, I believe this is on the right side, front of the block? I will go look again tonight as I am really wondering what in the heck the deal is. I know for a fact that the block has the matching VIN between 1 and 3, and the "SS" (and I believe, some other numbers) between 5 and 7. I need you, because I trust and highly value your expertise, to let me know if there is anything else I can check, or any other stampings, etc. Let me know. I certainly don't think the guy who sold it to me would have told me it was definitely the original block if it wasn't, and it certainly isn't "restored" under the hood, although as we know, the motor was rebuilt once. You know how I am about numbers. I will not sleep until I know tonight...I'll be down at my shop tonight with a flashlight!
Thanks man,
Mike

 

Okay,
Here goes...

The number on the intake manifold is "L 19" and "8-1231718-E"

The number on the front of the block (pass. side) is "E 21"

The number between the #1 and #3 on the block is "0H194300"

The number between the #5 and #7 on the block is "SS
083"

The VIN on the car is "446370H194300"

I have a partial build sheet as well, with line number "868", build date
"1203" and body serial number "125103". There are also several other codes for Steering wheel, radiator, air cleaner, mats, tires, radio, etc. It is approximately the left 3/4 of the sheet, the rest is destroyed, must have been under the tank??? It was in the glovebox of the car when I bought it.

What can you guys tell me? Is there another casting number on the block that is visible somewhere?

Thanks!!!
Mike

Thanks to Chris Pollack for his help as well, it is greatly appreciated.

 

Hey Mike,

The L 19 on the intake is certainly consistent with a December '69 build date, but the E 21 on the block is very odd. There were a few months left in the '69 model run in May, so they would still have been casting '69 blocks at that time. If I remember correctly, Duane once told me that GM didn't cast parts for multiple model years at the same time, so logic would dictate that the casting date is May 21, 1970. Not that I've seen everything, but I've never seen a 6-7 month time lapse between a block casting date and a build date.

Here's the big question; do you think it's possible that, not having luck with the sale, the prior owner may have had the block restamped after Jim Jones looked at it? He did mention that it was decked and the numbers were gone.

Also, did you check the casting number on the tranny flange on the back of the block? If it were cast in May of '69 it would probably have the same casting number as the 400 or 430 (1383790) whereas the casting number would be 1231738 for a 455 block cast in May of '70. I know Duane is busy with work now, but maybe you can get input from some of the other board members with more expertise than me. Good luck.

Regards,
Donny

 

Mike,

As Donny said, the date code on the block does not make any sense. To my knowledge, there are three ways of identifying if the block was re-stamped: casting date; correct appearing "SS" and serial #'s; and a "secret" production code that only very few can de-code.

Another thing that concerns me is the rivets used to install the cowl tag. Those are not factory rivets, and that is also going to make a lot of people nervous.

At this point, I would recommend you hire a well known Buick expert to inspect and help you figure out what you bought. There seems to be several board members in Ohio that may help, but since these issues are extremely important to the re-sale of the car, I would consider someone who has extensive history and experience with Stage 1's. You seem to trust Marco, so he can lead you in the right direction.

 

I didn't notice the rivets, but James is correct. These appear to be regular pop-rivets with washers. Definitely not the GM standard issue. I also agree with James' recommendation of hiring an expert to help you figure out what you've got. You don't want to wind up in litigation.

 

Thank you guys, VERY much. I am extremely upset at the thought of having spent that much money if that is, in fact, not the correct motor. I also had no idea about the rivets...I believe my next move needs to be to call the previous owner, or drive down and pay him a visit. I may end up in court, but certainly not as a defendant.

In the mean time, can someone please decode my "secret code" for me? Is this the "083" on the block or is it somewhere else? Also, what should the font look like on the block??? I really need to know...and if at all possible, give me any other info that would be helpful. I am keeping my fingers crossed here. If this turns out to be a re-stamped block I will be blown away...the guy I bought this car from seemed like the nicest, most down-to-earth guy in the world.

Thank you all again, very much.

 

Mike,
I believe you need to look at the frame and find the vin numbers on this car. Its not all adding up for some reason. The rivets holding the cowl tag are nowhere near correct.I would suggest taking off a few simple intem and looking to see it tampering was done. 1 would be the VIN tag plastic cover to see if they have standard rivets or if they are the rosette type. Next I would remove a pillar and see if there has been a repaint over another color.Or take off one of the vents in the 1/4 panel in the door jamb and see if it looks ok. I would surely question the Cowl rivets.Did you say you had the build sheet? What is the color code etc on it?? Does it match the car??It seems that the cowl tag number matches the buildsheet number as well. Maybe the original rivets were bad and there is a good reasoning for it.

 

Mike, I wish you luck. I have learned a lot from this thread. I really never knew how diabolical some people may be (re-stamping blocks) and how much you really need to know when buying a high dollar car.

 

There should also be a VIN stamped on the firewall. This one would tell you if it's been rebodied.

 

Not all cars had this though, I think it depends what plant it was built at.
I too noticed the rivet's, may just be a coincidence?

 

Well guys...this has been one of the worst days of my life. But in sense, I am relieved that it is all over.

I decided that I had no choice but to go straight to the source.

This morning I confronted the guy who I bought the car from and, in a nutshell, told him that he had one opportunity to tell me the truth about the car that I bought from him. I reminded him of how ALL I CARED ABOUT when I bought this car was that the numbers matched on the engine and transnmission...as all other things can be replaced, but not those two items. I asked him to tell me the truth about the engine, had it been re-stamped...

...his answer was yes.

I didn't know how to feel, I was angry, disappointed, upset, etc. But, by the same token, he was (now) telling me the truth, albeit a little late. I asked him why he didn't tell me this before and he stated that he "didn't remember talking about it"...yeah, right. I reminded him of how he even put it UP ON A LIFT for me, so I could verify tranny numbers. It started to come back to him...afterall, it was a whole three months ago.

He stated that the numbers were re-stamped when he had it rebuilt, as the deck was blocked, but insisted that they "only stamped the VIN and codes, just as it was before, on the original block"...it was then that I explained to him that it was funny then that the block was cast almost 6 months after the car was built, and that if they stamped the same numbers that were on the original motor, then they must have given him the wrong block back...of course he "didn't know that".

Anyway, I told him I needed to know what he would like to do about this situation, and explained that this was not a matter of a "small amount" of difference. He said he would be up to Columbus next week to refund my money and take the car back.

All this being said, I believe he is a good guy who either is a great BS artist, or really got flim-flammed himself, or maybe just didn't realize the importance of all this stuff. Then again, maybe I am just an idiot.

To all of you who helped me, especially Chris Pollack, Marco and Mike Zeman...thank you. I am really bummed about all this and sorry to have wasted so much of everyone's time with this ordeal. You guys were right though, thanks to all of you.

...and Mike Z., thanks you bastard, but I think I'll pass on your offer to buy it now. The guarantee expired this morning when I got off the phone with "the stamper". :blast: :laugh:

And the biggest Thanks to Jim W. for putting up with this soap opera.

I am, for now, 10-37...this tour is over.
Mike Berkemeier

 

Mike,
sorry to hear about this.
Did you at least get a little satisfaction of making him squirm by playing "good cop/bad cop"?
It seems funny to me that the engine shop stamped the block? What did they do, come to his house and do it in the car? The #'s weren't there a year ago when the other member looked at it. Smells fishy.
Good luck resolving this issue.

 

what about the numbers stamped into the rear of the body on top of the trunk weatherstrip, centered between the trunk hinges.
My November 69 built 70 GS 350 has the codes stamped directly into the body, confirming GS 350 status for the body..

 

ATTENTION:
Update on the saga of my 1970 Stage 1...

The seller came through and refunded part of the money to me for the car, I told him my intention was to sell the car for what it was worth, and that I would return his money to him at that time as he really did not want to mess with selling it himself. He has proven to be an honest person and is, as I always believed, a VERY nice man. I truly believe that he may have actually been under the impression that the block in the car was the original.

So, here it goes, car is for sale for $25,000 or BEST OFFER...Call me, please, if you are serious, I need to sell it ASAP and it will go on eBay soon if it doesn't sell here. I will also sell WITHOUT the extra parts I have for MUCH LESS, so let me know what you are thinking. If you think I am being unreasonable, let me know, I just want break even on what I have spent thus far. This is a REAL 1970 Stage 1, with a NUMBERS-MATCHING, ORIGINAL "BB" tranny and a 1970 block that is RESTAMPED with the correct VIN. It is a correct 1970 455 block, but with a casting date of 5 1/2 months after the build date of the car. The intake, heads, etc., are original to the car.

Thanks,
Mike

614-893-3857 cell
614-920-4730 home

 

Any takers at $20,000? I am willing to negotiate with or without the extra parts.

 

Ttt

 

Any takers at $19,000 before it goes to eBay???

 

Lets take a step back here.

From what I understand it's a documented (by the VIN) originally Stage1 built car with matching trans, no rust problems, original interior in good shape. Does it drive and run good? Is there anything wrong with it as a driver? If not, I'm thinking $19K is a good price for this car.

You need to put your disappointment aside and think about what you have, not what you don't have. Try not to dive too low.

 

That is $19k including the parts, right Mike?