Scott, brother. Relax. We are all friends here. Now here is my point: take a 1970 GS as an example. De-code the VIN It decodes as a GS, Buick sometimes called it a GS Sport Coupe. Take a 1970 Skylark Custom and decode the VIN. It de-codes as a Skylark Custom In 1970, the GS wasn't a Skylark option. It was a Buick model. I don't want to fight with you on this, however, I will not accept that the 1970 GS was a Skylark options package unless you or someone else can provide the option code that makes a Skylark a GS in 1970. In 1964, the way Pontiac got around a Corporate ban on engines larger than (if I recall the correct cid) 330 cubic inches in an Intermediate model car was with an options package on the Tempest. It re-badged the car as a GTO- but the GTO wasn't a car model that year, it was an options package. Later on, the GTO reverted to an options package on the Le Mans. I believe that was '73 or '74. As years went by, bans were imposed and removed on various engine sizes. In 1970, GM lifted the 400 cid ban (Buick lied about the 401, calling it a 400- not the nailhead, the Buick 400 was actually just over 400 cid if memory serves) and the intermediates sported upwards of 455 cubic inches in engine size. By that time, the performance models were their own models When a car has it's own model, it gets a VIN for model. This is directly from the 1970 Buick All Series Chassis manual, page 00-2: Division I Specifications and Adjustments 00-1 1970 MODEL CHART series...........................body style...............................designation Skylark........................2-door Coupe Thin Pillar...............43327 ..................................4 door Sedan Thin Pillar...............43369 Sportwagon..................4 door 2 seat wagon...................43435 ..................................4 door 2 seat wagon...................43436 Skylark 350...................2 door Coupe Hardtop.................43537 ..................................4 door Sedan Thin Pillar...............43569 GS...............................2 door Coupe Hardtop.................43437 Skylark Custom...............2 door Coupe Hardtop.................44437 ...................................2 door Convertible......................44467 ...................................4 door Hardtop...........................44439 ...................................4 door Sedan Thin Pillar................44469 GS455...........................2 door Coupe Hardtop..................44637 ....................................2 door Convertible......................44667 That, friends and neighbors, is the list of 1970 Buick models based on the A-body. Not options on the A-body. GSX is excluded from the manual, as a half year model. later manuals may list the GSX as well, but we are discussing a 1970 GS455 Convertible here. I have the 1970 Assembly manual...I don't see "GS" as a Skylark option in that manual...please let me know if that is incorrect, I will look up the page and read the option number that makes a Skylark a GS...That is not confrontational, I am not saying "prove me wrong". I'm saying this is how the VIN decodes. i think you're mistakenm and I am presenting the facts as I know them, from the best source I can find: Buick Motor Division. A 1970 GS455 Convertible is Not a Skylark, a Skylark 350, or a Skylark Custom My 1970 Skylark Custom is not a Skylark 350 or a Skylark. While they share the 44000 series designation, that is beside the fact that individual VIN codes were given based on model and body style The first "4" means Buick in the VIN in 1970, the next two digits are the model, the next two are the body style. My car is a "4 44 67 0 H XXXXXXX" the "0" is model year, "H" means Flint, Mi, and the xxxxx are the serial numbers A GS455 Convertible from '70 is a "4 46 67 0 (plant code) XXXXXXXX" The "44" means Skylark Custom in my case, the "46" is the much sought after GS455 a 44467 is a Skylark Custom convertible, therefore, and a 44667 is a GS455 Convertible. note how both convertibles have the "67", denoting convertible body style. The previous two numbers, "44" and "46" are different- because that is the model number The model codes are completely different. they have seperate VINs, and are clearly listed all the way back when they were new as seperate designation numbers o No: What can I say? These aren't my rules. I'm not trying to fight with you Scott, i am just saying why I feel I am documentably correct in saying that in 1970, at least, the GS455 or base model GS, is not a Skylark at all Annie- you do not own a Skylark :TU:
Tim- It is surprising to most muscle car guys, but the first Pontiac GTO was indeed an options package, look up the history of the car if you doubt me.
Techincally, Since Buick Motor Division assign a particular model number that denoted a GS from 68-72 (or maybe 73 or 4) then a GS is a seperate model from a Skylark coupe. Practically, the most dog-out GSX and the meekest 6 cylinder Skylark coupe were built on the same assembly lines, with at least 75-80% identical parts. Save for spoilers, hood and emblems/trim items, they are exactly the same, as far as the body is concerned. From 68-72, only the convertibles got a boxed frame. As I understand it, the eariler GS hardtops had the ragtop frame. And it couild be a lot closer than 75-80% the same.. let's talk about a 70 custom coupe Skylark, with the hi compression 350 specified on the order form, vs a GS 350 for the same year.. it would be possible to build yourself a GS350 by optioning a skylark correctly, and all that would be different is the emblems and the hood/grill and misc interior/exterior trim. So is a GS a Skylark.. yes and no... it is a seperate model, but derived from the Skylark platform. The big motor always seemed to be the deciding factor for me personally.. You would never confuse a GS with a Skylark, visually or based on performance, when one of these A bodies was equipped with the 400/455.
That's exactly why I call it a Skylark. I could have cared less whether someone called my old 1971 Riv GS (R.I.P.) a Riviera or a GS. It was a Riviera. Just be happy they don't call your Skylark a Chevelle. I had on guy tell me (in reference to my 1971 Riv GS) he never knew that Oldsmobile made such ugly cars. I told him ALL Oldsmobiles were ugly. :grin: Skylark Stage-1 (tweet, tweet) ...... :laugh: Doesn't sound so macho does it..... :laugh:
If you want to get technical....Buick combined the GS 455 and the GS 350 models into one. Starting in 71 the 43437 model denotes a Gran Sport....period. So technically all 71 big block GS's are GS 350s with the 455 option. One reason big block 71's are difficult to document if the engine and trans is missing.
I had some guy mistake my Riv for a Cadillac. I honestly think he didnt know what he was talking about. He said his friend has a Cadillac just like mine. I told him, that is a Buick and not a Cadillac. He then tried to tell me that they were the same thing.. :shock:
How would this debate go if we were considering much older cars, where the different "models" were basically different chrome and bumpers? Does a different number on the VIN really mean its a different model (at that point in time) or was it meant to identify it from it's base? The GS is based on the Skylark, and to me, is a type of Skylark, though distinctly is own. However, I'd at least think a car magazine would get the semantics right - or at least say the GS was "based" on the Skylark (thus being incorrect no matter how you look at it).
But Scott...your VIN wouldn't decode as a Lamborghini GS, would it? I understand what you mean, of course, but still...we both know that fender badges aren't waht we were talking about, it was options versus model Today, a car may be an 'optional performance package', but these cars were made when quite a clear definition between models was made, by VIN If I identify my Skylark as a GS455 when (hypothetically) I sell it, I am a fraud, and guilty of a felony offense in the US- because the model is not a GS455, the model is Skylark Custom Take the 1970 Stage1 as an example. Is a Stage1 package a Skylark option? No, it is a GS455 option- the Stage1 is not denoted by VIN code, either- it's an option based on model, an option available on no model but the GS455 for that year. While I agree that yes, we all know the similarities and it is a bit silly that a car that is 95% identical to another is a different model, the fact of the matter is that you couldn't build a GS455 out of a Skylark 350, from the factory. Couldn't be done- you had to buy the GS455 We are going to have to agree to disagree on this model versus option thing
Gs IF, I remember right the switch over year was 68 for the A body. The Riv [68] that I had was a G S but still was marked riveria across the hood, trunk and inside said Riveria by Buick. I think the Wildcat G S was the same as the Riv. I think I remember the A bodys being changed first and then the big cars about 1970. I do know that the 1970 G S Stage 1 that I had was marked just as a G S.
No, you didn't. But neither did I. I could have rattled off most of the differences that you did. That's not what I asked. I also didn't ask to be yelled at or treated like an idiot for asking a question that even all the "Buick Experts" don't necessarily agree on. The tone of your answer(s) says more about you than I cared to learn. And if every time I asked a question here, I got a 'holier-than-thou' answer like yours, I'd quickly find another place to ask my questions. Lucky for you, I'm quite tenacious and have never had trouble asking my questions, no matter how stupid or ignorant them seem. Know what? I almost always find that others had the same question but were afraid to ask. I'm sorry, were you reading for comprehension, or just jumping to a conclusion? I said your analysis was faulty, not your information. Oh, but wait, you did have to 'dumb it down' for me because: Yes, because there is obviously something wrong with ME that you have to put it in "non-Buick owner's terms". I don't know, I've got 2 titles here issued by the State of Michigan that say I am a Buick owner? Maybe YOU should report me? I realize that doesn't make ME a Buick expert, like YOU, but maybe I can buy the "Buick Expert" option package and add it to the end of MY model name and that will make it ok? Would you like a cookie or a gold star? Good for you, you already know that. But Chris wasn't answering a question you posed - so why does that offend you so that he added that info? (That's a rhetorical question) Perhaps many of us here didn't know that, not all of us are Experts yet. Weren't you the one concerned about "somebody learning something"? It's certainly not that I didn't learn from your post or that I don't appreciate the information - and I am not even debating your answer compared to others. But I do take pause when affronted by an answer with the tone of yours, as if you were put out by having to answer yet another question by someone who just will never get it. I may never 'get it', to your satisfaction, but I'm not one to sit and 'take it' either. PM me if you'd like to discuss my ignorance further - I've run out of nice words and we've already wasted enough board space.
Riv GS The last year of the GS for a Riviera as far as I can tell was 1975 according to what I have found. I didnt see anyone mention that. Now I am gonna slide out of here quietly and try not to make anybody mad...... :grin:
Once again Scott's odd habit of using too many caps and smilies has upset some people. "I" REALLY don't think he MEANS to OFFEND. :laugh:
I like the way you answered this question. Quick, simple and to the point. Technical enough for us Buick people yet simple enough for the "other than Buick" people! :Brow: :beer
GS Gone Wild! Well, I can tell this thread has gone wild! Several people are saying the same thing I think. But to throw some more confession into the mix, here goes. I know for a fact that in 1967, GS trim could be ordered on Special models. The cars had the Special model #'s on the trim tag but had GS trim on the cars. A friend has the 67 dealer books for ordering these cars and I have seen the options listed for these cars. Also I know of 2 cars that were ordered with these options on Specials. The first car I ran into was in the mid 80's and I nearly bought the car until I checked the trim tag and the #'s were different than my 67 GS. I assumed it was a clone job on a Special as it had the 300 engine. Later I learned that you could order the GS trim both inteior and exterior. You could also order the GS wheels which this car had. It did not have the 340 or 400 by the emblems like a true GS. Of course the frame was not boxed either. It was a Special with the GS emblems and wheels and hood scoops. Also the car was a thin pillar coupe. I found the car again in 2000 when I was searching for a 67 to build a race car, but by then it was rusted down and the owner wanted 3 times as much for it as in 1985. Also got a report of another one of these optioned GS cars in western KY. So I guess nothing is for sure in those days. Jim N. 67 GS B/NSS
Well, it should come down to what Buick says the models are, which is very easily investigated...trim options from one car to another doesn't determine model, the VIN does- that's not my rule In 1970, you couldn't option a base model GS to make it a GS455, could you? I don't see the option code that does that...similarly, an L6 Skylark in 1970 couldn't be upgraded into a convertible by options- the Skylark Custom was the model you had to buy to get the convertible model
Annie - I dont think Scott meant to sound Condescending ... If you re-read the threads he's posted in he always sounds that way uzzled: :laugh: Its difficult to interpret true "feeling" from typed words.....especially Scott's Unique way of expressing himself while typing
I CONSTANTLY hear the 442 referred to as the Cutlass 442. Conversely, I've NEVER heard the GTO referred to as the LeMans, GTO.
insert spoon into pot and stir... Since we now have a clear idea of how post '65 Skylarks and GS's had different model numbers (and therefore are different models), one way to get a better handle on Buicks intention is to see how they dealt with the Wildcat GS and the Riviera GS. Does anyone know whether or not the Wildcat and Wildcat GS and the Riviera and the Riviera GS cars were broken out into different model numbers? Or did I miss this in the thread somewhere? From the owner of an "optioned" 1965 Skylark.
