Hey Guys!!!!!, First off, it has been while since I have been on the boards. Other life issues arose and took precedent. Well after about a 2 year absence, it is time to start the project again. So to jump back in, I'll be starting with getting the 350 built and ready for use. As it sits now, it is a bare block that I had machined about two years ago. The freeze plugs and cam bearings were installed and I had the block (.030 over) and crankshaft machined. Got her back to the house and then life got in the way. So she sits in the garage and is ready for parts. I'll be needing help along the way and have about a $4k budget to throw into this build, if I can save some money then I'd prefer that...obviously. Here's what I have in mind thus far: ~I'm thinking a hydraulic roller cam (if cost is too much then a non-roller cam can be used) profile will be determined once CR is found. ~Flat top pistons (preferably forged not cast, sources??) ~Later version connecting rods ~Stock rockers (HD version shaft) ~TA Alum. intake ~Q-Jet (800cfm) ~Head work (either buy completes from TA or have mine done, which every is more time and cost conscience, I have 4 cores lol) ~Full length headers (1 3/4) I'd like to be in the 350hp range and equal or more torque as this car WILL tow on occasion (5'x8' uti. trailer with 1-2 motorcycles, 2000 lbs max) Car has 3.42 gears w/ posi and 30 spline moser race axles. I will be measuring the main caps and crankshaft journals to figure out which bearing size to go with. THIS I will need guidance on. Ive got the tools, just need some reassurance. Thanks!!! ~Scott
Hey Scott,welcome back! With that kind of budget with most of the machine work done you should be able to get more HP and torque if you wanted it. First off,you don't want flat top pistons with a sbb 350 because your compression will be way to high,and thats not good for towing. I would shoot for around 9.5:1 and run premium when you tow to prevent detonation,unless you want to tow with 87,then you'll want around 8 to 8.5 to 1 static.(but the lower comp won't get as good mpg) Here is a good forged piston; http://www.buyracingparts.com/pisto...totec-forged-350-buick-dished-piston-kit.html That price includes rings,and if you don't like their specs in the ad,you can change them to how you want them at no extra charge. As you can see in the ad,with a 13.5cc dish they're advertising the compression ratio @ 9.75:1,with flat tops you would probably be around 12:1 and you would have to always run race gas,or E-85. TA sells roller cam blanks that will need to be ground for whatever compression you end up with to run right with your combo,and roller lifters for a sbb 350,pricing isn't to bad for those parts from TA.You might be able to buy the '73 and newer rods from someone on this site if you post an ad in the parts wanted section,and TA sells ARP rod bolts for them. You'll need to have the rotating assembly(crank,pistons,rods,the machine shop you take it to will tell you what they need) balanced with the harmonic damper and flex plate before you assemble the engine to do it right. So this should be a good start,by the way,what trans will you be running?GL Derek
Hey Derek, I agree with the compression ratio staying low for when I tow. I just figured since I didn't zero deck the block (just squared off) that even with FT pistons I'd be below 10:1. But I LOVE those AutoTec's, super nice!!! Thanks for the link. Best octane rating we have in cali is 91 and I'll be running that all the time. I'd like to stay between 9.25:1-9.8:1 SCR and DCR 7.5:1-7.9:1. The TA roller cams may be a little out of reach, the cam isn't bad price but the lifters are a little steep, unless the hydraulic roller lifters are cheaper than the solid roller lifters. I'll worry more once I get to that point. Like the idea of the part wanted ad. Maybe I'll get lucky!! I just like the ease of buying rods that are already to go without any extra machining. But used parts would be a cheaper route. I'm most likely going run a TH350 since I have 2 in my garage. I was thinking of running a 200r4 but that is very iffy. ~scott
Hey Scott,the hyd. rollers aren't that bad; TA 1412-350 215-300-340-350 Buick & V8 Rover Hydraulic Roller Lifters, Style C ..................... $364.00 Solids would require the rockers to be adjustable,or adjustable push rods to set the lash. The billet roller lifters are $695,with your level of build that would be WAY OVERKILL!(pun intended) Heres their regular solids; [SIZE=1][COLOR=#383336][FONT=Arial-BoldMT][SIZE=1][COLOR=#383336][FONT=Arial-BoldMT][SIZE=1][COLOR=#383336] TA 1413-3 [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][COLOR=#383336][FONT=ArialMT][SIZE=1][COLOR=#383336][FONT=ArialMT][SIZE=1][COLOR=#383336]215-300-340-350 Buick & V8 Rover Light Duty Solid Roller Lifters, Style C ........... $350.00 Anyway,hyd. would be best for your application. When ever your building a new engine its a great idea(if you can) to spring for the roller cam and lifters so you don't have to worry about using special oils and additives so the cam doesn't get wiped out. With the roller stuff you don't have to break-in the cam like you do on a flat tappit cam either. And if you take a roller cam vs a flat tappit with similar grinds perimeters,the roller will always out perform a flat tappit cam.(even though it may not make more HP as the very simmilar f/t cam,it will take less HP to spin it that will show up on a dyno) You say you only had the deck "squared off",so you have no idea what the deck height is then? The sbb 350 blocks can be as much as .060" taller from the factory(depending on year),you need to measure the deck height to be able to accurately figure out your compression ratio. Factory deck height spec is 10.188"(need to know actual) - 6.385"(rod lenght) - 1.850"(compression distance of piston)-1.925"(half the crank stroke) = .028" in the hole. Which would be 9.59:1 with a 10.188" deck height,13.5cc dish volume, .030" overbore,58cc combustion chamber,3.890" dia head gasket bore diameter, .040" thick gasket,and -.028" deck height. Heres the link for the compression calculator I used; [URL]http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php[/URL] [SIZE=5][COLOR=maroon][B][CENTER][SIZE=5][COLOR=maroon][B]Compression Ratio Calculator[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]<CENTER>[TABLE] <TBODY>[TR] [TD="align: right"] [CENTER]Common Pontiac Engine Displacements : [SIZE=2](click the button for that bore and stroke for each engine)[/SIZE] <INPUT value=301 type=button> <INPUT value=326 type=button> <INPUT value=350 type=button> <INPUT value=389 type=button> <INPUT value=400 type=button> <INPUT value=421 type=button> <INPUT value=428 type=button> <INPUT value=455 type=button> Click the following to add to the bore size. [SIZE=2](Note: If you click the buttons more than once, it will continue to add to the bore's value.)[/SIZE] <INPUT value="+ .030" type=button> <INPUT value="+ .040" type=button> <INPUT value="+ .060" type=button> [/CENTER] [/TD] [TD="align: right"]<FORM encType=multipart/form-data method=post name=comp action=/cr_test2.php>Number Of Cylinders: <INPUT value=8 size=3 name=cyls> Bore: <INPUT value=3.830 size=10 name=bore> Stroke: <INPUT value=3.85 size=10 name=stroke> Head Chamber (cc's): <INPUT value=58 size=10 name=head> Valve Relief / Dome (cc's): <INPUT value=13.5 size=10 name=vr> Gasket Thickness: <INPUT value=.04 size=10 name=gasket> Gasket Bore Diameter: <INPUT value=3.89 size=10 name=gaskbore> Deck Height: <INPUT value=.028 size=10 name=deck> <INPUT value="Calculate CR" type=submit name=submit> </FORM> [/TD] [/TR] </TBODY>[/TABLE] </CENTER> [B]Input a positive number for valve reliefs. Input a negative number if it has a dome Derek[/B][/CENTER] [/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] ---------- Post added at 03:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 AM ---------- Oh yeah,I forgot to add that sbb 350 engines don't have very much aftermarket support,thats why I mentioned the parts wanted add for rods. There are aftermarket rods out there that can be made to work,but those will need machining to make them fit.(but not that bad) Even some nascar take outs can be used if you want to build a stroker. TA offers reconditioned rods for $295 a set,with a core charge of $180. If you get a set of rods from the parts wanted section cheap,you can use those as core returns? Make sure you get the '73-'80 rods,their stronger,and the same price as the older weeker ones. If you're not in a hurry for rods,I may be having some made in the near future for sbb 350's. (will know more by next weekend if I will if this other project I'm waiting for info falls through)
As always, the DCR is what you're looking at for real compression. SCR is incidental, along with stroke and CID. Stock Buick 350 with a stock cam has around 266 (265.83716544) CID with the dynamic stroke of 2.93". Earlier IVC points @.006 = more DCID, though tends to be lower RPM usage engines (more torque). DCR @ 7.33:1 can burn 89 leaded octane with no pinging issues (even for towing). Advance the timing bigtime and run 93 premium. Bump DCR to 7.5, 7.67, 7.75 and your premium usage will be fine, though the lower numbers will be best for long-term loads (towing). I'm going to shoot for around 7.67-7.75:1 myself. Sorry if not clear, woke up in middle of night on medication and I think I may be 'sleep typing' lol Gary
Welcome Back Scott !! I have a set of brand new TRW Forged pistons 10.1 30 over with moly rings if your interested..
Derek, Thanks for the link with the compression ratio calc. Ill definitely use that when I get to figuring of the CR. I had a feeling I was looking at the wrong thing on TAs website regarding the roller lifters. Id much rather use a roller camshaft for the exact reasons you mentioned. I feel that its a much better option for the long haul. Youre correct that I have no idea what the deck height of my block is. I never measured it before tear down and got it just squared off per advice from Sean. Once I get the bottom mocked up I can measure and see if more needs to be taken off or if Im good. I figured I can take material off the heads if needed. I definitely want to go with the 73-80 rods for their better design. If I can get some for cheap I could just use them as cores. Im not going to get rods any time soon but I dont want to wait too long. Whats the time frame you are looking at? Gary, DCR I have learned to be the true number that determines an engines character. Ill have to pay attention to that when I get closer to cam choices. Now being in California, leaded gas is non-existent. Would 91 UNLEADED octane (E10) be livable at those DCRs you were mentioning?? Im at about 400 elevation (joys of being by the beach). As far as timing goes, Ill be following the power timing thread. But thats way down the road. My towing is going to be pretty light and infrequent, so may not be as critical. Eric, Those puppies are nice!!! What you looking to get for them? Although I dont want to shoot myself in the foot if that 10:1 puts me in a bind CR wise. ~Scott
I'd say put it around 7.5:1 and you'd be fine on 91 @ sea level. Polish your combustion chamber to be rid of any potential hot spots and you'll have a pretty solid foundation. Gary
So my first step on the block is figuring out what size bearings I need for the mains. I stupidly lost the paper from the machine shop that had the measurements so I busted out my Micrometers, Dial Bore Gauge, and Calipers. Now I know your measurements are only as accurate as your least accurate tool so I started there. The two micrometers that I am using (2”-3” & 3”-4”) were dead on with the 2” calibration piece and the 3”calibration piece. As were my calipers (going to go get a digital one soon). The dial bore gauge was another story. With the 3.0” adapter installed, I measured it with the calipers and the micrometer and got 3.0280. Is that a huge issue??? Clearances are obviously really important with engines and if this thing is way off I’ll just go buy a new one. It’s the powerhouse brand I picked up off of summit. If it is not an issue then my measurements are as follows: 1[SUP]st[/SUP] cap: ~3.1580 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] cap: ~3.1580 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] cap: ~3.1585 4[SUP]th[/SUP] cap: ~3.1580 5[SUP]th[/SUP] cap: ~3.1580 I measured each cap in three spots and got the average from 7 measurements. All caps are torqued to specs. I measured the main journals on the crank with my micrometers and got the following: 1[SUP]st[/SUP] journal: ~2.7085 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] journal: ~2.7080 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] journal: ~2.7081 4[SUP]th[/SUP] journal: ~2.7092 5[SUP]th[/SUP] journal: ~2.7082 I measured each journal in 4 different spots and got the average from 7 measurements. What’s the thickness of a stock bearing? I assume you just subtract the bearing thickness from the difference of the main cap and journal equation, correct? ~Scott ---------- Post added at 07:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ---------- Oh trust me, heads are where the :dollar: is going :3gears: ~Scott
Here's where the link came from; http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm The advertised compression ratio on the TRW pistons may be a little on the high side.(it depends on where your deck height is,and the TRWs are probably 10:1 with a 10.188" deck height) Maybe Eric can post the compression distance and the dish cc to see if those will work for you? I looked in my old Federal Mogal piston catalog and there were 3 different forged pistons for the sbb 350 back in the day. The higher C/R pistons had a 1.852" comp. distance with a .073" deep dish @ 3.070" dia. So,I did the math on the higher C/R pistons and ran it through the calc.,and with a 10cc dish with a 10.188" D/H would be .026 in the hole with a .040" thick gasket,it came out right at 10:1. If your D/H is .020" higher than the factory spec,then your C/R would be 9.6:1. With the open chamber design of the sbb 350 head and a round dish dished piston,quench isn't as important than a closed chamber head would be. So if your block measures 10.208"(.020" more) then these pistons would work for you. You can measure your deck height without mocking the engine up if you have your old main bearings and something that measures 3.000" in diameter that is long enough to span across 2 main bearing saddles. With a set of depth mics,or calipers with the depth measuring feature,measure from the deck to the highest point on the 3.000" diameter. Take that measurement and add half the 3.000" diameter(1.500") to what you got,and thats your deck height.(deck height = top of the block where the heads are bolted to,to the centerline of the crankshaft mains) If your measurement is 8.688",that would make your D/H right at 10.188" As for the rods,I will know more in about 2 weeks,and will start a thread at that time. They will be a H-beam style forged rod with 8740 ARP or ARP-2000 rod bolts(not sure yet) priced @ $450-$480 range good to 700+ HP,if the other project falls through.So if they are out of your price range there would be no need to wait,don't want to string anyone along if the price would be more than they would be willing to spend. Derek
Hey Scott,first off when you setup a bore gage you have to set the zero on the dial by using your mics,you can't just throw the 3.00" adapter in it and expect it to be at 3.00". Its a PITA to setup bore gages with mics but it one of the more accurate ways to do it if you don't have gage blocks and a bore gage setup fixture. And YES that WILL be an issue if the bore gage is .028" off,unless you subtract .028" from your measurements. The main housing bores should be 3.188"/3.189",you have a .001" tolerance here and if they fall outside this range they should be corrected. Those 3.158" readings are .030" off,you need to figure out how to setup that bore gage. Now the crank main reading that you wrote down are .292" to small for the 3.00" sbb 350 mains. You had to of read them wrong,a .010" under main should read in the 2.9895"/2.9905" range where 2.9900" would be right in the middle. When you find out the correct undersize of the mains and figure out how to setup your bore gage(not trying to be mean,it takes time to learn how to use these kinds of tools if your not already familiar with them),you can buy the correct main bearings and torque them in the block and use your bore gage to measure what the diameter is on the top and bottom.(side to side will have larger clearance built into the bearings,so only the top and bottom measurement is relevent). So back to the drawing board and let us know what the real measurements are. :beer Derek
Hmmm, well try try again I say!!! I'll measure them again tmrw. Thanks for the help Derek!!! I had a feeling those numbers were way off. ~Scott
Ok, So I figured out how to set the dial bore gauge up with the micrometers. Not easy lol. Anyways, I measured the mains again and got much better results. 1st cap: 3.1887 2nd cap: 3.1883 3rd cap: 3.1890 4th cap: 3.1887 5th cap: 3.1887 Now I also remeasured the main journals with my micrometer and still got the same measurement. It read just a hair under 2.8000 on all 5. So I'm worried lol.
Oh and if it matters, I wrote down the casting numbers from the crank and block: Crank: 3418640-2 (googled it and got a hit on a dodge??????) Block: 1231447 (matches cars body tag and VIN) ~Scott
That would explains why the mains are to small! That is a 360 mopar crank!! Holy crap,how did that happen? Did the machine shop give you the wrong crank back? WOW,thats sucks,I re-read your first post,and you've had the wrong crank for 2 years! The measurements you posted are in line with an undersized small block mopar 360 crank,which according to the pic of the mics they actually read 2.7798, which would be for a .030" under 360 sb mopar crank mains. Can you post a pic of the crank to know for sure? The machine shop might of thought they were grinding a mopar crank,probably after lunch on a Friday? What do the rod journals measure? FYI, when your reading mics,the 3 lines in between each number is .025" apart,the longer one in the center is the .050" line. So in the pic of the mics you're 3 lines past .700" plus the .005" mark on the barrel which = 2.800"(actually a little past,making it 2.799?) to read the 4th digit passed the decemal point you have to rotate the barrel and line up those long horizonal line that have a numbers at the end of them with horizonal lines on the thimble(the part that spins). I hope you can still get a hold of that machine shop. Man,sorry about your luck on the crank,that really sucks. On a better note,the bore gage measurements are all in tolerance and should be good to go. And yeah,it is a PITA to setup those dam things with mics,not much easier with gage blocks and a bore gage setup jig,almost need a 3rd hand,lol. Let us know what you find out. Derek
Wow indeed LOL. Well I guess thats my luck lol. I'll head up to the machine shop on Thursday and see what they have to say. No sense in getting all mad over it. Great news that the mains are in spec, I'll get a pic of the crank when I get home from work. ~Scott
