Starter catching and or noise stop turning.

Discussion in 'Street/strip 400/430/455' started by StKing, Jul 20, 2021.

  1. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    I know it's a lot of work. I did it on my back. :) The Robb Mc starter worked for me with a 1/8" of shims. I took the opportunity to change the flex plate when I swapped converters. Now I can use any starter including the stock ones, both regular and Mini. You need to change your flex plate.

    It isn't really clear to me what distance you are measuring. The important measurement is between the starter pinion gear and the flex plate gear.

    Pinion Clearance.JPG
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2021
  2. StKing

    StKing Well-Known Member

    It still doesn't make sense to me at this point. Robb said to "Remove the existing starter, install the two mounting bolts (without the starter installed), and measure from the center of the bolts to the nearest side of the ring gear on the flexplate."

    I'm not quite sure why he said to install the two mounting bolts or how I would measure from the center (as in in-between) both of them, I thought 1 would suffice and to measure from the center of the bolt head to the closest side of the flexplate, but that makes me think I wasn't completely understanding his directions.

    What I don't get is if the stock starter pinion gear went out too far and I had to put a spacer to shim it back, why won't his starter work? I emailed him asking these questions and asking if his starter will extend too far or not far enough to work with my flexplate. We'll see what he comes back to me with.
     
  3. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Why can't you just measure (using feeler gauges), the distance between the pinion gear and the flex plate, as shown in the diagram I posted? 1/16-3/16" is the spec. In my case, the pinion was practically touching the flex plate at rest. I shimmed it back 1/16", but ultimately needed 2 shims for a total of 1/8". That worked for me. When I replaced the flex plate with the correct one, I had to remove both shims from the Robb Mc starter. A stock mini starter will now work in my engine without grinding. I would ditch that flex plate in a heartbeat if I was you.:)
     
    TrunkMonkey likes this.
  4. StKing

    StKing Well-Known Member

    I will measure it with feeler gauges, appreciate the advice. Other than the obvious fact that the flexplate won't work with any starter I know of, is there another reason why you'd ditch it?
     
  5. StKing

    StKing Well-Known Member

    From Robb,

    "Your ring gear offset is 1/4" off from stock making the ring gear too close to the starter. Our starter gear would be engaged with your ring gear as soon as you bolted it up. Our starter allows you to shim the starter so the pinion gear is pulled back, but only a maximum of 1/8".

    Sorry for the bad news. If you don't want to replace the flexplate, you might try an old-school, non-gear reduced starter (the big, heavy, stock type). Because the old-school starters had more pinion gear travel, the pinion gear might be far enough away so that it will work."
     
  6. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    That's not enough of a reason?:D

    Is the pinion engaged with the flex plate at rest? All you have to do is look.
     
  7. StKing

    StKing Well-Known Member

    Haha! I'm trying to find any way to not have to pull down the trans to change the plate.

    With my stock starter, the pinion isn't engaged at rest.
     
  8. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    How far away is it?
     
  9. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Here is the problem. That flex plate has the teeth too close to the starter pinion. The pinion would extend too far past the teeth, and then grind because it couldn't pull away clear of the flex plate in time as the engine started. The spacer you made limited how far the pinion extended out, but the problem remains because there isn't enough clearance between the fully retracted pinion, and it STILL can't get clear from the flex plate teeth in time. The only solution I can see is if you made the pinion gear shorter, thereby increasing the clearance when it is fully retracted. That might work, but I do not know if it is even feasible/possible.

    I'm not sure why you are so averse to changing out the flex plate. I can understand if you can't do it yourself or have someone do it for you for whatever reason. That is the best solution regardless. I know my original flex plate had that same problem. Hard to believe yours is even worse than mine. If you have that minimal clearance (less than 1/16") between the pinion and flex plate at rest, as mine did, then the Robb Mc starter should work with 2 shims, as mine did.
     
    TrunkMonkey likes this.
  10. TrunkMonkey

    TrunkMonkey Totally bananas

    If I had a nickel for every time I had to pull a transmission for a 5 cent problem, Id be even money at this point in life.

    I'd be hanging up the phone after ordering won of JW's SFI plates and walking out to the garage and pulling the transmission right about now.
     
    LARRY70GS likes this.
  11. StKing

    StKing Well-Known Member

    Mostly because I just painted everything and the more times I take it apart the more paint chips are going to occur. I also have to remove the x pipe. Not that big of a deal but I have to buy a new starter no matter what so if there was one that worked that’s the option I would prefer. None the less looks like I’ll have to do it anyway.
     
  12. StKing

    StKing Well-Known Member

    I'm back to working on the car. I want it to be reliable so I will be changing the flexplate as recommended by Larry. I apologize for all the questions I'm just trying to understand what is actually going on. It would appear this is taking me a few times to fully understand.

    I do have a JW "The wheel" plate with an SFI sticker on the back just not with the correct offset. I will call JW to get an SFI plate with a stock offset, would that be correct? Anything I should be looking for specifically (I'll ask JW when I call as well)?

    Also, the stock starter will work with the stock plate offset obviously but is there a starter you guys would recommend? 70 stage 1 iron head 455 with TA stroker kit.


    03796C14-B385-48D5-B4C6-5E8DD30DECC6.jpeg IMG_3363.jpg
     
  13. 12lives

    12lives Control the controllable, let the rest go

    Can you read a part number? You may have other issues like tooth count.
     
  14. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Jim Weise has a very nice SFI flex plate with the correct offset. I would not take a chance on anything else, certainly not another JW wheel. I have read about problems like that in the past, but apparently, not everyone has starter issues. It was a huge pain in the butt to me until I figured out what was wrong.

    NewFlexplate.JPG
     
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  15. HotRodRivi

    HotRodRivi Tomahawks sighted overseas

    You know I was llooking at my parts from TA like the FLY wheele. Flex plate. I bought it 5 yrs ago and its flat. Why would TA sell me a flex plate that is going to be a problem. Are they going to tell me the same thing. I need an offset flexplate.? And yes the motor is still appart. I have everything except money to take the block to machine shop.
     
  16. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    It might not be a problem. You won't know until you put it on. Apparently, some guys with flat ones don't have a problem. I did with the one I had.
     
  17. HotRodRivi

    HotRodRivi Tomahawks sighted overseas

    Sounds like it depends on which starter I use. I been using the large stock type that every 2 yrs bust the nose off. I wonder if on the mini starter you could add a few washers behind the return spring to give it more snap back. Faster return.
     
  18. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
  19. StKing

    StKing Well-Known Member

    Very odd that it happens to some and not others. I would think manufacturing specs would be the same across the board.
     
  20. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    It depends on exactly how the ring gear is mated to the flex plate. Without the offset, the ring gear needs to be welded on correctly. Not sure if that is consistently done correctly. I know I have read about this problem with JW The wheel Buick flex plates before.
     
    StKing likes this.

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