Project HP 69 S/S Skylark

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by Graham, Feb 18, 2006.

  1. Graham

    Graham Registered User

    I hope its acceptable to post this thread here in the Race forum even though its partially high performance street orientated with a strong emphasis on racing at the track.

    This has been my winter project.

    I will be asking questions in the up coming months about tuning, traction and getting my times down where they should be in relation to the power curves my 464 had delivered on the dyno.

    The goal is mid 10 second 1/4 passes with streetcar performance mannerisms. Is it possible? We'll see...

    There has been some history posted of my buildup sporadically throughout the realms of this board. I would like to amalgamate that data here and hope this thread will lend some insight for other rookies (like me) to pursue and accomplish their goals if somewhat specific to my objectives.

    First off, If it wasn't for V8 Buick.com and its members, this project wouldn't have happened.

    The build up is as follows:

    The engine is a 464 with mostly all TA components.
    The heads are Stage 1 Street Eliminators. I asked for the 2.26"intake and 1.755"exhaust combo that was being used on the Stage 3&4 stuff. TA came through. Also asked for the full out Level 4 Race Port. Rick at TA hand ported them.
    These heads with that new valve configuration were the best flow numbers they had ever seen for the ST1 SE as of last year.
    TA is now offering them ported in CNC fashion from the success they had with my set last year. I guess you could call these the prototype set.

    TA 413 Cam (dont laugh yet)
    MSD Pro Billet Distributor
    MSD Digital 6+ Box
    MSD Super Conductor Wires
    MSD Blaster Coil
    JE Light Weight Forged pistons 0.038"
    13.3:1 Compression
    1.65 T&D Roller Rockers
    Factory Forged Rods
    Ported SP1 Intake, 2"spacer and 1000cfm Race Demon
    All oiling Mods done
    All the proper clearances checked and double-checked
    SFI goodies, Balancer & Flex plate
    TA Deep Sump Oil Pan
    Balanced and Blueprinted
    Ron Davis Radiator
    Custom aluminum pulleys by Rob Giroux.
    No girdle.
    Barry Grant fuel system 280 pump 10 gal cell
    Battery relocate kit.


    New HD Race Turbo 400
    9.5" tight custom-built converter 3500+rpm

    Factory Canadian made Skylark GM 12 bolt.
    Full overhaul rebuild kit from Mark Williams
    New 3.90 Richmond Gears
    New Eaton Posi 30 spline
    New Moser Axles with C-clip eliminator kit.
    Going to run a 29.5" tire

    TA Super Comp Jet Hot Coated Headers
    Full 3" TA Mandrel Bent Exhaust with electric dump valves on the cutouts.
    TA traction bars
    Rear Spring Air bags.
    New full Hotchkis TVS Suspension system.
    Rebuilt 12:1 Close Ratio Power Steering Box

    Should be fun on the street and the track.

    Here are the Head Flow Numbers:

    Combustion Chambers at 69 cc's
    Intake At 263cc's
    Exhaust at 179cc's

    Closed 145# @ 1.850
    Open 340# @ 1.250
    Coil bind @ 1.070
    Seal to retainer 0.850

    Valve Intake Exhaust
    0.050 38.70 30.10
    0.100 50.20 57.20
    0.200 149.40 121.90
    0.300 213.60 167.50
    0.400 276.00 196.80
    0.450 303.00 212.60
    0.500 329.50 226.10
    0.550 349.30 233.70
    0.575 356.50 236.20
    0.600 361.60 237.50

    The 413 Cam has a lift of .500 but with the 1.65 Ratio yields 0.538"
    Choose that cam for street-ability and vacuum requirements.
    When we broke-in my 464 engine in on the dyno it was recommended that I use Pennzoil 20W50 Racing Oil... Apparently it has extra additives that help during the initial brake in that most other oils dont have.
    We ran it for 20 minutes at a fluctuating 1800rpm, put the inner valve springs back in, then made some lighter progressive pulls until the rings were seated in. (Having your new engine on the dyno sure is cool, Its neat watching the engine make more and more power after every pull and wondering how much power the thing will eventually make after the rings seat in).
    We then dropped the oil and put Mobil 1 10w30 in it for the rest of the dyno session.

    These fellas had never had a Buick on their dyno, let alone a semi race prepped one. They have been specializing in Race Hemi Stuff for the past 30 years.

    The dyno operator seemed dumbfounded scratching his head after a couple pulls on the dyno. I asked him what was up and what the problem was. I had to chuckle when he said This engine shouldnt be making this type of power with that little RV cam. (TA 413)
    Actually, the guys took up a pool, betting on the horsepower the Buick 464 would make.
    The bets placed were between 425 to 525 HP.
    I had talked with Mike at TA and knew it would be at least 575.
    The best part was guys kept coming into the dyno room throughout the day asking what it was making for power, then watching their reaction when hearing of the numbers. Have it all on vid, strategically placed the camcorder.

    The numbers from the dyno were 601HP @ 5500 and 614lbs @ 4500

    If my math skills are correct, and I dont break anything, this combo should yield, for a near perfect sea level 1/4 run 10.33 @ 128 mph. Well we'll see.

    I talked with Rick Crawford and hopefully got the AF numbers inline by resizing the air bleeds on the Demon. It was fairly lean.

    Here is the Dyno Info:
     

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    Last edited: Feb 18, 2006
  2. Graham

    Graham Registered User

    Set up in the trunk.
     

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  3. Graham

    Graham Registered User

    This car was purchased new in 69 from Stampede Pontiac Buick in Calgary Alberta. A dusty pic.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 18, 2006
  4. Graham

    Graham Registered User

    Just recieved the Stage II Hood from VFN.
     

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  5. Graham

    Graham Registered User

    ..
     

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  6. Graham

    Graham Registered User

    Will be getting rid of the 2" drop base aircleaner, Gary Kubisch made me a Lexan airpan. Here is an underside shot.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 18, 2006
  7. Graham

    Graham Registered User

    Aircleaner to hood transition pic 2 different angle.
     

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  8. Graham

    Graham Registered User

    The little engine that could.. or should I say will.
     

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  9. Sportwagon400

    Sportwagon400 Well-Known Member

    WAY COOL Graham you will have to come to Calgary and run it one friday nite at secret street I'll even drag out my 64 to run ya with ( I'll lose but will be cool to have 2 Buicks run fast ) Talk to you this week

    Ken
     
  10. GS Kubisch

    GS Kubisch THE "CUT-UP" BUICK

    Graham
    At some point I would like to see you do a test on cranking compression before you race.....
    With 13.3 to 1 and considering what I've bought into for theories,That cam being so small might give too much cylinder pressure and cause detonation issue's such as bearings,crank,block failure.
    A "happy" engine is usually around 225psi +/-
     
  11. Landshark1969

    Landshark1969 1969 GS convertible

    That's really cool !!!! That motor would look really good in my boat too :TU:
     
  12. Graham

    Graham Registered User

    Gary, please explain a little further in depth on the detonation concerns.

    We ran Sunoco 118 race fuel in it on the dyno over 2 days. I also have a half a barrel left over from last year of VP's CMP oxygenated race fuel I ran in the 69 GS 400 Convertible.

    After the dyno session we pulled the pan and a couple of main bearing caps for inspection. There was a little main bearing wear but I was told not to be too concerned about it and it looked normal for a high compression race motor after break in and hard pulls.

    I was also told that it would be a good idea to re-bearing the engine every 1-2 seasons depending on how much it was raced or under full load... Were my engine builders not telling me the whole story here?
    Now I am concerned.

    This engine has not ran in the car yet. We put around 30 hits on it during the dyno sessions. I have all the data on paper, which may need some review.

    I am waiting on a HD drive shaft, tranny oil cooler, and the suspension package. I have the entire exhaust setup also ready for install. I will not be firing the engine up until these components are installed. I plan to have the car over to the shop for the suspension work and have everything else installed and ready to go by March 20.

    BUT I'll prelube the engine first, and obtain the compression data in the next couple days for review and post.

    I am concerned now, as I was sure I did my home work regarding the engine build.... :confused:

    Here a couple pics of Garys Airpan he fabricated:
     

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  13. Graham

    Graham Registered User

    Another shot. Clearences look OK.
     

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  14. Graham

    Graham Registered User

    Raised the air cleaner nicely in the scoop. A big thanks to Gary K. :TU:
     

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  15. 72GSX

    72GSX Well-Known Member

    Hi, I am wondering why in the pictures the battery is on the left side? I was under the impression that the right side rear tire sould have more preload than the left. I am not trying to be picky, just wondering, thats all. Other than that I like the car allot. I have a stageII scoop on my Skylark hood with a 5" high filter stuck up inside it. Any idea on how much lighter the new hood is over the stock hood?

    I am wondering also with all that compression how much power it would gain with more cam. Wouldn't that high compression make a bigger cam more streetable than if the same cam was in a 10 to 1 motor? I don't mean to sound like I know more than you on this stuff, I am still learning all the time so thats why the questions. I bet with those heads and if there were no worries about vacuum for brakes and what ever that motor would make some real big numbers with a big cam. I don't mean to say that 601hp is a light weight by any means.
     
  16. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    Streetability

    If your going to running race gas, then consider camming it to run the best and still operate power brakes. I ran a TA510 on the street with only 10.0 compression and it still ran my power brakes and idled at 800-850. Power was still below 6000 but that was mainly to do with my iron heads. I would say that the small cam is less streetable with that kind of compresssion since it will run a lot hotter from all the cylinder pressure and might take extra work to keep it cool. You wont know until you run around with it in your car.

    It looks like you have put a lot of work into making everything look as nice as it does. You are making some very good numbers with that motor but just remember there is more if you want it. :TU: You will always learn something no matter how hard you try to do it right the first time. Doesn't make anything wrong just means there is better. But as long as your happy, that is all that counts!
     
  17. 69GS400s

    69GS400s ...my own amusement ride!

    .....I think I just wet myself :Do No: :laugh: :bglasses:
     
  18. Graham

    Graham Registered User

    Hi Tom, Thanks for inquiring and dont worry about asking questions,.. thats what this tread is all about.

    The VFN glass hood weighs around 38 lbs. I would think there is a weight savings of around 50lbs from the stock hood :Do No:

    Tom, Rick, Gary, JW... Another problem I have here guys is that the block is not filled or running a girdle. Originally I wasn't expecting those TQ/HP numbers.
    I'm hesitant now that by installing a larger cam, it would greatly increase the possibility of blowing out the bottom end. :spank: There is no doubt that a big cam would make this a 700 HP engine. I'm riding a very thin line here... If it dosent grenade this year, I will install a girdle, sportsman rods and rebearing it next year. Any thoughts? I'm still concerned about the cylinder pressure issues Gary was talking about.. Can someone elaborate a little more on that?

    I mounted the battery on the left side as I was under the impression the extra weight would be of benefit due to the frame/body twist under load. I do have an airbag kit that will be installed shortly. Another reason was I searched the board for pics and some of the fellas were mounting the battery on the drivers side too. Here is a pic I will use off the board. (I cannot give credit as to whose car this is, I hope they dont mind me posting it.)
     

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  19. Dubuick

    Dubuick CMDR Racer

    I mounted the battery on the left side as I was under the impression the extra weight would be of benefit due to the frame/body twist under load. I do have an airbag kit that will be installed shortly. Another reason was I searched the board for pics and some of the fellas were mounting the battery on the drivers side too. Here is a pic I will use off the board. (I cannot give credit as to whose car this is, I hope they dont mind me posting it.)[/QUOTE]

    The car look great your doing a great Job :TU:

    But as for torque twist the air bag will not work ( I had the passage side bag blow up!!!) I have tried so my things to get the car to leave with out twisting the best and easy thing to get is the hr parts-n-stuff sway bar works great but with a 9" tire (don't know if you can run a large one on your car) it is tough to get it to hook up

    But the car looks good you'll have a good time driving it !!!!but it was said before from rick "You will always learn something no matter how hard you try to do it right the first time. Doesn't make anything wrong just means there is better. But as long as your happy, that is all that counts!"
     
  20. GS Kubisch

    GS Kubisch THE "CUT-UP" BUICK

    Graham
    Use the "advanced search" in this forum,User name:staged70lark and keyword "cylinder pressure".

    I believe and agree with the same theories as John Zerucha,He is a student of NA combo's and has shared a great deal of info in quite a few threads on this topic.

    Also,The car pictured belongs to a friend of mine,It doesn't get raced alot so suspension tuning was not addressed at the time of that picture.
    As long as you've moved as much weight to rear as you can,I don't believe the location(side) the battery is on will have that great of an effect on how the car works.
    Airbags are a good start but many cars with the control arms suspension end benefitting a great deal from an anti-roll bar such as the HR piece that Mike mentioned.
     

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