Mopar meets a Stage One

The stock cooling system wasn't adequate for the Hemis either. I've talked to a lot of owners (and have seen reviews as well) that have said the 426 would overheat much easier than the 440s and other comparable big blocks.

And I know this is like comparing apples to oranges, but it's well noted that the '69 426ci Daytonas would overheat if consistently driven under 55mph.........a real race car!

 

i don't think they overheated cause they were race cars. their front end design didn't allow much air to go through the radiator, especially at low speed, stop and go traffic.

 

I know the reason, I just meant that they could really only be used for racing due to their condition. I'm afraid that "I'm sorry officer, I can't driver under 55mph or she'll overheat" doesn't work too well :Brow:
The '70 Superbirds however, didn't have that problem with the front end.

But enough about Mopars, it's been three whole posts since we've mentioned Buicks.

There, I did it.

 

OK 5 pages here about one race so i will add another back in 86 i was driving and street racing my 427 nova high 12 second street tire low on slicks well sold it for my first buick had only been at the dealer for 6 months and was 19 years old one drive in that gn i had to have one it layed more rubber in second gear than my nova.... the gn ran 14.1 at 101 out of the box .... with slicks only it ran 13.3 at 103 being at the dealer and following the indy car racing i new these engines could run and hard reading a little talked to the gm training center techs and with 500 bucks on slicks the car went 12.2 at 112 in 1988 that was a real fast street car we did alot of street racing back then and for a few year span maybe 88 to 94 my gn ruled the streets there was a kid that kept comming around late at night for about a year telling me how his dad was a mopar guy and his car would be done soon i was going to get smoked. so i started asking around who is this kid talking ****. They all told me his dad used to rule this place back in the 70,s this place is the lynn marsh rd that runs from revere ma to lynn ma a few miles of road with no way in or out once on it. a few months later when i showed up at midnight there were cars and people everywhere low and behold the car was there a green 70 cuda with a real rumbly 440. i tell the kid look i dont care how fast you think your car is you just dont show up and race the fasted car you gotta race the camaro first the camaro was a sb400 camel bump heads 410 gears and was a high 12 sec car well they raced and the cuda beat my buddy i was shocked and new i was up next .i was very nervous due to the fact that i new the camaro was a buddy car and my test car for tuning my buick took quit a few sets of slicks when tuning before i had him beat ........ we had 60 plus people at 130 in the morning we lined up the light turns green and were off ........... first gear he was about 4 lenght behind second gear he did not move up and inch......... third gear here he comes ............ but the 1/4 mile came up quick he made up about 2 lenghts i got the win after 3 races and the same results the kid never stopped to hang out and never showed up for another race or smack talking i could only assume we went home told dad what happened and his dad told him sorry son thats all we got ou:

just a good story for my younger years in 94 i put the car in storage with 32k on the clock it has 2 more years before it comes out again :beer and i cant wait to take on some of the new muscle out there

 

Yes, good story gm4life.
I worked for a Buick Dealer in NY back during the bad to the Bone" days of the Turbo Regal T-Type & GN's. I never was impressed when I took them for a ride until the '86 model with the I/C.....Man, I hit that from a slow roll, and it lit up the tires into second gear like a Good Square Port Chevy BB.
You may want to upgrade your toy as 12.2's are common place on Daily Driver's with no P/A's nowadays.
Best regards, when it comes out to play! :beers2:

 

Hey don,t be so bias. Mopar,s were great cars at the time.[60,s 70,s] Untill the Lt-1 caprice came out, they were the fastest state trooper cars. And remember the 68 hemi dart & baracudda,s. Faster than a ZL-1 corvette too. Buicks are good strong street engine,s but at one time mopar ruled too.But i must agree,big block torque is what give,s you the smackdown advantage over a small-block.

 

Fastest trooper cars here were the late 60s Plymouths with the 440 Magnums.

 

rick that story was from 1988 i ran the car until 1994 in 94 the car went 11.3 on a half track pass at 90 mph coasting in neutral with alot of white smoke thank god head gasket are cheap this was the first and only time the car had to be trailered ...... fixed it and put her away 2 more years cannot wait my buddys always givin me crap to take it out i was very lucky i did not die in that car was 19 when i bought it made it htrough some hell raising years drivin it very hard and reckless :3gears:

 

when i was a kid my cousin made the ma state troopers his car was a early 70,s plymouth with a magnum 440 i dont remember the car that much but i do remeber when they gave him a new model caprice ...... he was pissed the new car had no get up and go im pretty sure it was an early 80,s caprice and you guys are correct all through the 80,s untill 94 the police had nothing to catch anyone well atleast not a 87 GN hopefully everyone gets the hint on why i had to put my car away ................................. young and stupid ou:

 

Yes ,mopars were the fastest highway patrol cars for a very long time. I think the 440 was a good engine ,but here in chicago i remember taking the plugs out and heating them with a propane torch to get them started in the winter. They flooded pretty easy when cold at that time. I remember oldsmobile had a 1969 delta 88 [455]highway patrol car that was just a little slower that the dodges & plymouth,s at the top end. wonder at that time would a buick 455 be a workhorse like the olds & mopar. I like buicks and were any buick big blocks ,in NASCAR?

 

Geez Louise, there are some tall tales rolling around in here. lol My business is making cars faster for a living. Late models and forced induction/nitrous is a specialty for me and about all I see these days. Occasionally someone will bring in some classic muscle to be disappointed on my dyno. lol

Truth be told, other than the S/S 69 Hemi Barracudas and Darts which were race cars and not street legal BTW(check the tag on the door frame on a real one sometime)on average new generic cars like Mustang GT's and Camaros, when properly driven will beat the top dog stock muscle cars 9 out of 10 times. I spend alot of time helping my customers dial in their cars on the street and track. I can't tell you how many times I've run 13.1-13.3 in a generic 98-02 Camaro or Firebird LS1. Trap speeds for a good one are always 107-108. A personal record is a 32,000 mile 2002 Camaro 6speed I ran 12.89@110 mph BONE stock on Goodyears. A typical LS1 Camaro/Firebird 6 speed will put down 285-300HP at the wheels.

On the Ford front and 2003-2004 Supercharged Cobra will run 345-360 HP at the wheels and I have run as quick as 12.67@113mph in one on stock radial tires. With a smaller blower pulley, dyno computer tuning we do and a 3 inch full exhaust on stock manifolds, 430hp at the wheels will come up easily. On sticky tires one we did ran 11.77@118mph with me at the helm. I could duplicate this with any others like it.

I can tell you this about new Vettes. A STOCK base model can run lower 12's @118. A STOCK Z06 has run in the 10's on stock tires at 128mph. A ZR1 with all it's 638 STOCK HP has run 10.60's@134mph on stock tires. A tuned, pullied, headered one, otherwise stock, made 640HP at the tires and 700plus when a cam was chucked in there. Same car has gone high 9's@140 plus mph in the 1/4. That is flat getting it folks.

On to tales about my favorite cars: Buicks. I've owned several GNs' and T Types. The problem with them always was and always will be doofuses that don't know how to give the car what it needs to run a good ET. My stock 86 GN ran 13.70's@102 on street radials. Only mod was a free one. Lower the shift point on the trans to 5000rpm and drive it properly. My current 87 T Type ran 12.70@107 in the 1/4 with a set of old, tired drag radials and 200 dollars worth of cold air intake, in house tune(I burnt a chip for it using my dyno to tell me what it wanted) and a dumped down pipe. Car also had 160,000 miles on the odometer. Now it has some traction parts, freshened the OEM engine and installed a baby turbo, injectors to match, converter and ported stock heads. Otherwise engine is as it left the factory parts. Went 11.90@112mph on low boost and at 24psi it runs 11teens at 123.

As a backup my brother's 87 T Type went 12.33@109 in 1996(he still has it)with nothing more than a K&N filter, chip, dumped exhaust, DOT legal sticky tires, manual torque converter lockup switch and lots of at the track tweaking and playing to make the car run it's best.

Onto 455's. How the hell do guys blow up so many of them? I find it is like any machine. Stay within it's envelope and it will live. My current engine was originally built in 1990. It was in my 70 Stage1 for 10 years before I retired it for a frame off and cruiser duty since it was getting fast enough to make odd chassis groans when I launched. The engine started life as a stock recreation for my restored car. Got tired of sitting in a lawn chair having people tell me how nice my car was at shows. Decided to do what I do best and run it at the track for grins. Only mods to the car was a set of headers and nice exhaust. I ran 13.30's@106 on a craptastically slick dragstrip on Forestone radials. Bug got me and started leaning on it with a T/A SP1 intake, built Qjet and small cam. With sticky tires I ran 12.70's@109 on 3.42 gears. Put in a stall added 3 inch mandrel bent exhaust, 3.90 gears and ran 12.20's @111. Bigger cam, suspension tweaks netted me 11.90's @114. Freshened the motor(I do this whether it needs it or not every 2 years or 10k miles to play it safe),swapped cams again and pocket ported the stock Stage1 heads. Ran 11.50's @119. Added a 150shot of spray and went 11.0's@126mph. Hit the spray in second as it would spin if I hit it in first since the car was uncut and had tweaked stock suspension. Then my 3.90 gears were too much and ran out of gear before the end of the 1/4 and had to let off to avoid turning over 6000 rpm(another thing I do to preserve the motor. Build it to operate in the envelope it can survive in).

This is when I retired the car and built a lighter car that I could do some cutting on to improve. A 69 Nova badged as a never was 70 Apollo. Minitubbed it, roll cage, fiberglass fenders, bumpers, hood, decklid, rack and pinion steering, built 9 inch Ford with trick leaf springs and Slide A Link bars. Installed my engine and trans directly form the GS to the Nova. First pass on motor was 10.75@126. Over the winter added Stage2 Track eliminator heads, intake and 950 HP carb. On nitrous went 9.73@138. Pulled engine to freshen and decided to FINALLY girdle it and add some lighter forged pistons and T/A rods just to keep it strong and safe. During this I got offered a sweet deal on an already welded tube chassis for the car. Decided "What the hay" and cut the car up and made it a tube chassis with only a steel roof and doors(steel for safety on the street). Reinstalled engine, dyno tuned it to 719 HP at the wheels on a 200shot of spray and first time I sprayed it a full 1/4 went 9.33@144mph and there's lots left in it for sure just in the chassis settings. Hell probably could have used a jet change as the weather changed a bit while I was at the Buick vs Ford shootout but I didn't want to chance anything since the race is a one shot deal and the car was running fine. Looking for 8.90's@150 on my "safe" street tune and mid nitrous shot. Once she's 60 footing in the low 1.2 range instead of low 1.3's I'll up the shot on spray and try for 8.50's with the same hydraulic cammed block I put together in 1990 in full street trim(lights, mufflers, street legal tires etc.)

So, based on my experience, the 455 isn't a weak engine. Sure it needs a beefier block. Smaller diameter mains to reduce bearing speeds would be helpful too with a stronger block. But, I find that as long as I don't abuse it and stay within it's operating RPM envelope(with stronger rods 6700 is my max I will run it to. 6400 on nitrous)they can live a long time. Remember, Buick engines are torquers and as long as you build for max AVERAGE power under the curve there's no reason to flog it like a 302 Chevy and knock the bearings out of it every time you run it.

BTW: On motor my tube chassis has run 10.40's@131mph. Car weighs 2825lbs with me in the seat. Motor ET is hampered by a tight nitrous converter, 3.73 gear and 31 inch tires I use so I can make it to the end of the 1/4 on spray.

 

12.89 BONE STOCK huh?:shock: I'm not too sure that I buy that.

 

A 2002 camaro at our track with slicks no other mods runs high 12's

 

That's impressive. That's faster than the new ones

 

She drives the car every day and is the original owner. She had to quit racing it because it would go to fast for sportsman class witch is 12.80. They said it is stock and they are straight shooters. But you never know for sure. I had a guy with a 440 tell me his car was "Basically" stock and it had aluminum heads, different cam, 4000 stall, 4.10 gears, Fiber glass Hood and fenders. I then said how is that basically stock. He said well, it's the stock block.ou:

 

Great story as well, and I can relate to the "Lawn Chair" gig's That is why I race my LS1 Formula, and enjoy my Buick GS for the "chair gatherings"....lol

You're right about the late models tho. The new Vette's run 12.30's with the LS3 on Stock Street Tires, and I line up with them sometimes for pre race Test n Tune before our monthly Corvette/GM CHALLENGE Series Race here at our local track.

But I have to remind you, tho they were few and far between, I was fortunate to have two "sleeper" '70 LS6 454/450 'Velle's way back when.
(1-M22, & 1-T400, both with 4.10's).
Those thing's would knock down 13.20-13.30.'s on the F70x14 Stockers at 106-108. No Header's, full stock exhaust to the cowbells & Break Hearts. No Lie! (forget the Hot Rod mags Road Test of the time at 13.08 in the 1/4)

I had sweetened up both with Carb mods, curved the distributor and a pair of the NHRA Stock eliminator 9" tires of the day and went 12.70's - 12.80's.
Now add: L88 type or similar Cam, swap out the flat alum intake for an earlier Bowtie highrise, 2" Header's and a Holley 850 DP,+(2800-3000 B&M converter for the T400) and 12 teens all day. Very respectable now for a no adder 3800+ lb. Daily Driver ride, even more 35 years ago.

Sure would like to have come across a Stage 1 '70 as they were so stout, but never came across one in the 5 boro's at that time (mid 70's).
But that LS6 was one buggy that could hang then, and hang now.
Just Sayin'...... :TU:

 

RapidRick. No doubt about some of the faster top dogs of the musclecar era hanging in there. I prefer them to new cars any day as my stable has a 69 Nova(aforementioned faker Apollo) a 70 GS Stage1 that is my first child(not for sale EVER) and my wife has a 69 Firebird 400 that is a T/A clone we're working on.

That said, I also recognize the march of technology. The days of feeling superior and the overdog in a stoplight contest against new era muscle machines is, sadly in some ways, over. If my GS was a stock show car queen that rarely got "tuned" and I was rusty at the racing game, I'd be more than a little worried the snot nosed kid with the sideways hat in dad's new Camaro would beat me at the stoplight contests. That is only the point I'm making.

Luckily, it is a rare original muscle car such as a GS or Chevelle that is truly stock. Even the tires are a performance adder as they have better stick than the old bias plies. Since few of our cars are truly stock and I know mine won't ever truly be stock since running points(as example) is ridiculous, that helps me stay with these new ones. I guess it says alot about the times we live in that a person in this country can still go out and buy a car that is thrilling to drive and as fast as the "good old days" in the stories we heard. And it also says alot about how well the old dogs truly did run to be able to stick with the new hi-tech stuff on any given day.

I like both eras and have cars from old to new(besides the ones I mentioned) and enjoy every minute of sticking the loud pedal down on whichever "era" car I'm driving as in general I'm a go fast kinda guy, and appreciate something that "gets it" no matter what the build date.

 

I hear ya' Apollo, and I totally agree with you Gent. :3gears: