Mopar meets a Stage One

doubleclutch, it makes for good reading but the mid 12 second stage 1 was not bone stock.

 

Well i know that the buick is fast, and the mopar is too! Could it be the drivers ? I am pretty sure that the 440-6 pack mopars were faster. and i,ve a frieind that had 396/375 68 chevelle ss with 4:11 gears run a 13.23 at u.s 30 back in 1972 that was bone stock . So could it was in the drivers? I won a race against a 1969 440 charger with headers and a 4 br carb. I was driving a 1979 camero with that bad 5.0 engine [305] 2 barrel carb/ 140 hp . Guy in the charger missed a gear ,and he was history.I know i was supposed to lose. So what. I would like to see a stage 1 & a GNX square off . That would be a great race.

 

One race can be misleading. Lots of rich assholes have nice fast cars but can't drive them worth a crap. I still stand by my opinion that rednecks can drive a lot better than rich assholes

 

which category do you fall into?

 

My wife says I fit into the asshole redneck category.

 

Well, let me turn the clock back to 1975 for a story (no nitrous and no Drag Radial's at the time).

After a couple years of spectating at NHRA Stock eliminator at events, and seeing the "underated" Buicks stomping 428 Torino's, 440 Roadruners, Super Bee's, etc. I was 18 when I got out of Olds 442's,( I had thre 67's) and bought my first Buick. A 1971 Stage 1 Ragtop. A/C, Buckets, Console and 29k miles from the parents of a Serviceman.

From info I gathered at my visits to the track, I had the Stage 1 heads blueprinted and milled (8.5-1 compression was really about 8.9 with Stage 1 heads anyway) Now my 455 was at about 9.25-1 with the lousey gas back then. Some minor port matching and intake work done.
I had "Flagship Marine" in my town (they did alot of machine work for Joel Rosen's Baldwin Motion Performance in NY which was in the next town)...well they extrude honed my exhaust manifolds and took the flapper out.

I had an 800 Holley single feed model #6211 Spreadbore Double Pumper hidden under the GS Air Cleaner (air inlet flappers removed, and the Cleaner Lid sat on top of a 1" taller air cleaner element so it was open all the way around. Recurved Distributor, approx. 2600 converter in the stock BB tranny, and 4.10's with Goodyear Polyglas GT G60x15's. (I couldn't find a set of 390's for the 8.5" Buick rear).

Well, if someone had a full bodied car with stock exhaust manifolds, full exhaust, and on street tires ie: 340,Duster's,Demons,383 Darts, Hydraulic cammed 396/325, 396/350, Camaro's/Chevelle's, Z/28's and the LS5 Chevelles too! 383 and 440 Mopar's,GTO's,442's, etc. I'd try and get a run.

Like I said, if it was full bodied and had exhaust manifolds on it, I'd try to do something out on the highway in and around the NYC area I lived in , and from a dig only, (as those Buick motor's had no RPM to run from a roll with the 4.10's I had in it).
My Stage 1 cam equipped car I think made it to 5500-5600 rpm tops.

So here's how it would go. I and a couple of buddy's would gode the owner's/driver's of these cars into running a big Heavy Buick GS, Air Conditioned Ragtop with buckets and console and I'd open the hood so they could see "nothing". (We'd be at a specific Burger King, or White Castle, or by the Shea Stadium Marina parking lot over by where the NY Mets played, Connecting Hwy,etc.etc.
(Remember this was the time before nitrous, and underhood blower's).

Sure I'd spank them good on the holeshot. I'd be out 2-5 cars at the get go, and alot of them would reel me in within my bumper or I'd have 1/2 a car on them at the predetermined finish line. (guys standing & holding the tens and twenties we would each put up).
As I said they'd be on my bumper sometimes, as my Stage 1 Ragtop ran out of breath against these lighter cars, some with sticks and bangin' off gears at 6000-6500 rpm's. but the Buick held them off.
btw, it ran 13.70's on a good day on the 15x7" buick wheels with those G60 Goodyear Poly's) and 13.30-40's with a 28x7" cheater slick. Flyin' back then for a street tire & no header's car.... but that's my opinion.
I graduated to LS 6 Chevelle's then a LS6 equipped '69 Z/28 Camaro for the rest of that era,(til 1978), but that Stage1 car was a Killa. No one knew what they were, with so few Buicks around..... Lucky me :TU:

 

Go to the GS Natl's. in Bowling Green, Kentucky next May sir, and you'll see plenty.
:3gears:

 

Definitely not a rich asshole but I have no muscle car experience but I can drive a stick pretty well

 

You can't make comparisons like this without bringing up price differences. My 70 GS cost roughly $4000 in 1970 which equals about $22,000 today. A new Z06 cost about $74,00. If I took the $52,00 difference and spent it on performance mods for the GS how fast would it be? Fast enuff to smoke the Z06 I'd bet.

 

What does a Z06 run? Mid-high 11s if he rich asshole can drive it? There are plenty of buicks that fast

But then again you can't compare a stock Z06 to a buick with 50 grand into it.

There's not really any way to make a vette and a Buick an equal race.

 

Let's get to the heart of the matter. A friend has a LS7 ( the Z06 engine) in a 69 Camero. I was present when it ran 8.2 in a quarter. It has some improvement left on the table. It pegged the local chassis dyno at 1200 hp. You are going to need to bear the expense of the new TA block and the accessories in order to compete.

And when you get that he has a aftermarket alumnum engine in a late model Vette body. It was dynoed on an engine dyno at 2400hp. It runs 3.9 in the eighth. They are nervous about running it in the quarter because the top end in an eighth is already around 190 mph.

So the stock late model Z06 Vette is 500 plus hp and it runs mid 11s in the quarter stock whereas the 1970 GS 455 stage 1 is at 375 hp and runs mid 13s in a quarter.

The LS7 modified puts out way more than 1200 HP (maybe 1500) modified that I know about whereas most Buick factory 455s are limited by the block to 800-900 hp. Rod and Dannie's engine seems to be the one exception.

The aluminum aftermarket block for the Vette is putting out 2400 hp that I know about whereas with respect to the TA block we do not have one tested to my belief. If someone has one that has been tested I would love to hear the numbers.

 

But then again you're comparing a super high end, high dollar, new technology motor compared to an anchient 1970 motor? I mean come on, I hope the Z06 motor is capable of a lot more than the 455. To me, that comparison is meaningless. Look how far V8s came from 1932 to 1970. 65 hp all the way to 400+ (we all know that 375hp rating is BS) Now look at 1970-2010 400+ hp all the way to 500HP...

Going back to comparing them stock for stock to me is the most impressive. A what? 4200 lb Buick running mid 13s in 1970 from the factory compared to a 75K$ 2010 Vette weighing 3200 lbs and only running 11.5.

Ask yourself what the better bang for the buck is?

 

uzzled: Here are our respective exchanges that kicked off the game:
----------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by poison heart
Hey, a driver can make all the difference in the world.

That's why Corvettes and Vipers are so slow...Rich guys don't know how to shift. Put a redneck in that Viper and he'll cut the best times

Flynbuick said in response:

"From owning one I would say a stock Zo6 Vette will dust 98% of the street driven Buicks. Ask the others on here that own one. From being around back then, a 440 six pack is one of the quickest cars from the muscle car era and so is a stage 1 455. An early 60s max wedge plymouth or Dodge B body was even faster. You just do not see many on the street now. We have a couple maxies and a stage 1 GSX. I have close friend that has 428 SCJ Torino. It is right in there with 440 MOPAR and and stage 1 car in terms of performance. I would not underestimate any of these cars. I appreciate all of them and many of the other brand owners appreciate the Buicks too.

In general the cars made today are quicker than those from the muscle car era. Technology has advanced such that today more performance is obtained from lesser cubic inch motors."

------------------------


The original issue was in general are today's cars faster than those from the muscle car era of the 60s and 70s. Now you are trying to change the issue to relative performance bang for the buck when comparing those era cars. In response I will put a used Z06 Vette against a restored stage 1 dollar for dollar. These used Vettes do not bring so much money and are trending down in price . Have you ever driven one? If you had I do not think you would be debating this issue. And yes I have owned a number of stage 1 cars too. (Still do)

You also injected the additional issue of whether rich boys can drive. In response I have to point out that Richard Petty, AJ Foyt, John Force, and Don the Snake Prudhomme are all multi millionaires.o No: Mark Martin, a multi millionaire, in his early 50s came in a close second in NASCAR driving points last year. He flys his own jet cruising at nearly 500 mph in all weather conditions out of Spruce Creek residental airpark near Daytona. John Travolta, a multimillionaire actor, pilots his own retired Boeing Jumbo jet, a 707 -100 around the world out of his own private stip near Ocala , Florida. Paul Neuman, the millionaire former actor was a great road racer into his 80s until his unfortunate death at age 83.uzzled:

 

I don't think anyone is saying a stage one is faster than a Z06 nor did anyone put down a Z06. We did say that you can make a 455 faster than a Z06 but any comparison between a modded and a stock car is meaningless. We did point out that comparing a 75K SPORTS CAR Z06 and an anchient luxuryy muscle car isn't really a fair comparison.

Do you think John Force and Richard Petty grew up rich? Hell no! they're rednecks who made a living racing because they could drive. Just because they got rich doesn't mean they lost their ability to drive.

Go to a racetrack and watch the Z06 Vettes and Vipers. Those Z06s will run 13s all day long because they driver can't drive it worth a damn. Watch the Viper granny shift through all the gears and run high 13s. Doesn't mean it's not a fast car, it means the dumb ass can't drive it.

Back to the point I guess.

What did a Hemi Charger run in 1969? Mid to high 13s? What does an 09 hemi charger run? Mid to high 13s.

What did a 69 GTO run? Mid to high 13s? What does a 2005 GTO run? Mid to high 13s.

What did a 69 Mustan run? High 13s? What does a brand new GT run? High 13s.

So, I wouldn't really say that newer cars are much faster in stock form. They have a lot more room for improvement than older cars do but stock vs stock they're pretty damn close. But I still don't think that means anything. A stock 1969 Muscle car vs a modded 2009 modern muscle car means nothing other than technology has helped performance...but of course it has

 

John see for yourself at youtube--search "my classic buick" look for 4 minutes first or second one. I know 12s challenges reality. I'm a novice but the car has few options and late in the tape the owner admits has spent a lot of time in tuning. Probably a lot of little stuff like faster ignition advance and much better tires than the stock. He burns out with apparently a start brake to heat the rubber. The car really jumps out of the hole which counts big time at the end. The runs are at a strip so the timing is accurate. Surprised me as well.
Chuck

 

New cars have no soul no matter how quick they are or if they are stock or modified. They sound like a bee stuck in a bull horn! Each to his own however.

 

I like the 60s era cars myself but one drive in a Zo6 would prove that your understanding about the sound of modern vehicles is mistaken.

 

Yes on that! Saw a beautiful Z06 Vette coming towards me into a round-a-bout and made a comment to my better half, "look at that beautiful vette". When he got through the "roundy round" he got on it a wee bit and it sounded fantastic, definitely not a stock exhaust and really doubt that the drive train was either. :Brow: Whipped my head around just hearing him getting it on for a look see. Ouch, still have a stiff neck..... :TU: :bglasses:

 

Your not going to see a NA LS motor make 1200 ponies. They are boosted or on the juice. I know I'm not scer'd of no vette! There is one around here that likes to come out on slicks with nitrous, runs low 10s, I guess.ou: Anyway I got tired of these guys picking on my younger buds so when they started at the big black buick,:Brow: , I let them have it. I guess they need another system.

 

In response to some of the earlier posts regarding Mopar guy's opinions of preferring 440's on the street to the Hemi's, and I'm not sure if this has been brought up on this thread, but it really all comes down to something that's somewhat been long forgotten, since everyone seems to look at how the Hemi cars run today and they bench race them based on figures from the 60's. In actuality, there were 2 main problems with street Hemis. These were slightly detuned race engines that Dodge and Plymouth decided to make an option on street cars. One big issue was that was that with the points ignition and other spark technology of the era, including the available plugs, the hemi cars would load up and foul spark plugs on a weekly basis on daily driven cars. The other big issue is that the dual quad's linkages would constantly need adjustment. So, it's not that the 440's were better engines, but it was near impossible to keep a daily driven hemi running well, as they required constant tuning due to their radical nature, hence, the 440's generally had a more reliable reputation for laying it down on the street scene.