I haven't since 2010 and you shouldn't bother him either. Stick to the books and leave the phone on the hook. Devon
Sorry, no interest in messing things up. CNC talk I have in spades. Get any known casting from a good source, proven CNC gets the same results. It's up to the precision of the casting first. Devon
I myself would like to know just how many buick guys out there cant fo any faster because the head is the sole factor holding them back, 99.99999% of all the buick guys out there are more than likely a long way away from there 380+ cfm race head holding them back, Ford Yates heads move around 350 to 400cfm and will suppor 2000hp. I can almost guarantee there is less than 10 guys in the country that will/would spend mega money to buy Or help fund a custcustom head program. All buicks need is boost when guys start hanging twin 88's and 101's off their engines thats when you'll see the 7 and high 6 sec rides. I mean idk about you but a 6sec door car gets RESPECT at any track at any time. And not just anybody can pilot a 9 sec car let alone a 7 or 6 so making parts for something that really has no market makes no sense to me granted its all idle chatter but still. Moral of the story is a set of nice stage 2 TE's or stage 3/4's will move enough air to do what most any man is willing to ride in
Humm, John Everett just ran a 7.82 with an iron block alky injected, NO BLOWER, NITROUS, or Turbo slightly under 1800#s. I believe Al Dixon ported the heads initially. He also ported my heads that flowed around 380 with no welding or filling. The S2 heads Jordan Betts did for us flow 447. Mike at TA saw those heads at BG and said he did a really good job. I think he was impressed. With that said Mike and I are both working on next generation heads. His cast and ours billet, for soon blown fuel application. We are hoping for the entire project to be in the car and running by end of February 2015. I think it is more beneficial to pay experienced Buick head porters than to buy all the equipment and do it yourself just to have an "oops" moment The new heads that Mike and I will have out will flow more for less $'s than the equipment. Even with the intake. This is not to say for the die hard with nothing but time on their hands shouldn't play around. Just ask these guys who have spent countless hours on the blog. Good luck to you all. BTW with 500 cfm and a big blower you can turn the motor less rpm and less boost and save a motor than a head that flows 350 to 400cfm. We will turn over 9000rpm, see if you can keep up.:laugh::laugh:
Thank you Kenn, I private messaged Kenn the other day to come and chime in on my thread and he sure did Now, why can't Bobb M. can't chime in? I was going through various engine builders, cylinder head modifiers-designers and started rading their in put on flowbenches and man several have the same philosophically , flowbench is a good starting point but it takes great knowledge on where to remove metal and and material . saying that I may I suggest you all including Kenn (no offense-but this is their words.) In Reher-Morrison website the on their little bar or home parts services area, there is a Tech Talk area. Click on it and scroll down to #70 Airflow Fallacies : Avoiding the pitfalls of the Flow Bench. Please read the whole thing because about 3/4 way down is shocking. I most say that 85ad was right, I believe in dyno results and time slips! You can have to much CFM in certain engine builds.Nitrous Engines, Super Charged Engines, Blown injected Engines, and Turbo charged Engines are the exception . Those engines like more CFM.. But for the Nationally Aspirated has to be done first by Flowbench and then dyno time or time slips until you you got your ports rt! No wonder some cylinder head designers have a damn good nack then others ! The wise are wise for a reason and not by luck. Now, back to basic porting and homemade CNC machines. Devon, so your school never had you read a book? Every Mechanic I know of especially the ASE one had to study books and still read books to learn new vehicles ! I'm not here for a pissing match but to try and help if I can. What I learn is from Professionals not by guess work. Then again, when I do get my non flowbench ported heads flow benched, then I'll tell you if I went the rt way or a major screw up. I promise you this though, I bet its better then stock by far! I followed simple instructions by a Pro not by guess. work
Well, this is where I come in, yes, if I was a millionaire , I would found three different people to compete for a chance to design several cylinder heads. Yes I would be part of the experiment. There is no reason for being behind in technology , There is always someone welling to help in way or another. Yes a simple $8000.00 program can bring Buick (all of them) up date and be just as powerful or more powerful then anyone else. So please someone explain why anyone hasn't offered a C.F.D. program to Mike T. at TA Performance ? No excuse's now, I'm flat arse broke but I do know where to get one at! Here is another reason people hasn't seen a great leap forward too, to many purest ! There will never be a one degree cylinder that will out perform a Canted/Splayed valve head period. I don't see a Buick Hemi either! But everyone of those will out do any Buick head produced. so, why hasn't anyone done any of this head designs several years ago. What TA offers is for the purest but not for the all out drag racer.
Kenn, I hate to do this but, I have to say this ok. It shows a massive difference ok. A Reher-Morrison 406 C.I.D. Smal block Chevy in a 1650# car go's 8's and 163 mph, that engine has no trick stuff on it either. Go over to Reher-Morrison website for proof. My point is this, anyone can make a lite car fly, just ask around, John Force did a experiment with a Buick Grand National engine in his Top Fuel funny car and went 8's with it. That's proof in the pudding there. But what you have done in the cylinder design area is beyond most people's comprehension here. Thank you for chimen in. You make a strong point any way you go though. May God bless you...
That's true Devon, but if It wasn't for someone porting the intake and exhaust ports first, the CNC is useless, meaning- you have to map out a proven port for a particular engine then program the machine to do your work for you! And yes a cnc can't do a full comp job like a human can. Meaning- a cnc does well over 90% of the work but we as humans most finish what a machine can not ever do. That's a fact just ask any cylinder head designer, professional head porter! Now if you want what joe blow has, then go head have a simple cnc machine copy that port design. If go to , lets say these three cylinder head places, Reher-Morrison , AFR , and Brodix ok. All three of this places first map out the port, then (digitalize the port layout) , then then sonic test for thickness of ports , they go to there handy cfd program to really get technical and then they make there CNC programfrom there. That all adds up to more then a simple person hand porting. My point is this, Chevy and Ford heads are all over the place and have had ever single consevable cnc program ever thought of that includes their after market counter parts but for Buick? There hasn't been one person come foward saying they have used a cfd program to get their maximum capability of any Buick head period. Yes, I'm educated enough to that much. It takes humans to program any computer component first. Thank you for chimen in though.
Hugger, you have a certain point there but, lets say some are like me? Thinking a 1000 hp engine can be a street engine! But here lays the problem, I must invest 25 to 35 grand just to reach that goal! I on the other hand has built two big block chevy's, one was a 427 .030 over non stroked and another that was a 496 bbc both reached at and the 496 went over a 1000 hp with simple ebay parts. no spread port bs either and the heads were even old design Brodix big brodies Series 1, no jesel parts, no belt driven timing system, no big name port work, a used 1150 dominator, but a correctly sized cam to the engine build. My point is this,it is nice just to go pick the parts to build a simple engine under $13,000 . Now can anyone do that with a bb Buick? I have ridin in a thousand horsepower car and it something everyone should do because it is a life time experience . Damn I can buy a one off Shebly Mustang with a warranty for 100G but remind you this, it has a warranty ,street driven easily , and it still doesn't fall under the gas gussler act and best of all, its a whole car with stereo and all the creature comforts . Is it worth it, simple answer for a 4285 #car. Hell yes.
GmcG, seems like you have a well informed and somewhat nebulous grasp on the art of head porting. You have all the right information, and need to do it for another 20 years to fully grasp what you refer to in this thread. Keep at it! That's the desire that drives us all. It's like Kung Fu, you have to know when to use what. Remember, this is an ART. Some can do more with less. Some are good at describing it, others can just do it but struggle with communicating their art. The CFD and CNC tech are used as time saving measures. They are needed to keep at the cutting edge of a competition environment. For the rest of us NOT competing against Reher-Morrison with our street and strip bracket racers, the goals can be met without the latest in tech. In today's day and age , you CAN build a 1000hp mill from Ebay's parts. Think of how good some have been to have done this without CFD or wet flow... Now I'm going to beat up on you a little bit, but I think you'll forgive me... I was ever so subtly asking you to look at the BBC port in the Bettes' book. It was created by none other than the infamous Vortecpro. I thought you might get a kick out of that. I felt as if you referred to him with a bit less respect than he deserved. I also thought at most, you might feel a bit red-faced over the whole thing...I didn't want to drag it out as far as it went.ou: Look into his work, that guy is awesome! All is well. Now that were past the personal BS, this has been a most interesting thread. Many good conversations. Definitely some sharp contributors on this forum, many of whom bite their tongues at times... I'm curious to see where this goes from here...
Throwing in some fresh input here. Make sure you read to the end! Here's a pic of my very first work on my very first set of heads in 1985 with help from a small time shop in MI, the owner let me look over his shoulder for all the work. These are the original '67 "big port" heads that came off the car. I wanted to install Stage 1 valves, and he said to me "you aren't going to get much help by installing those bigger valves unless we open up the chambers a bit, and you're going to have to do some work above them, too". I did a lot of bowl work and he cut the chambers with lots of area around the valves. He angle-milled the heads to decrease chamber volume and cut the intake sides to match. I polished everything I could, chamber, valve faces, piston and piston valve reliefs, even the exposed spark plug threads. I was proud of myself! Everything I'd read said smooth things retain less carbon and that may help prevent detonation. Here's the before and after, and that's after YEARS of street driving. I wiped away the carbon with a rag and some solvent. So, success I think for polished parts in reducing carbon buildup in combustion chambers for a street-strip car, right? It was also the same sermon for racing in the '60's, but little by little we heard that "smooth" was not the answer on the intake side. "It's ok to leave it a little rough" became the rage. Here's some new (two years old now) input that I find fascinating. Frankly, racers won't give a rat's butt about carbon buildup in the combustion chamber, and whatever works, works. This is the work of a fellow already mentioned. And he's getting measured gains versus smooth stuff. I find it fascinating. Devon
Devon, he also does this too the exh. Runner like that.Lots of discusion on this on differant forums. A very lenghty one on speedtalk.
I perceive that there's always a balance of mixture-motion vs/flow in an rpm range. Too much (m m) and it cuts flow. Too little and you lose energy/efficiency. You can only move stuff so fast before you centrifuge the fuel out (ie. crash into a wall) or the temp is too high, or you choke raw airflow. I think by now we should understand that the engine is a conglomeration of diminishing returns....Buicks have certain gifts. Great photos, Dawildcat. The name of the game is "what ever it takes". I recall having a set of heads I was rather proud of off the bench. Something seemed funny about the tune, and the intake was eventually removed. Well, one intake gasket had slipped down just a bit upon assembly. A weird pattern of fuel wash was found in the chamber and piston top. Before seeing that, no amount of carb tuning had any effect. The carb could easily have been blamed. Oops. OEM's put a lot of resource into mixture-motion.
Understood, and the discussions there are really insightful, to say the least. Thanks for that! Devon
/\/\/\ Exactly./\/\/\ I was at Finishline the other night. They are very busy. Bobb will not be on here. Best dropped. Thank You. This thread has been quite educational. Thank You to those who contribute.
This is not just for Devon but, everyone on here! From the 60's until some years ago, it was believed that where there was no carbon build up(black or gray thin layer ) it was known as fuel wash! That was proven not to be the case by this big name people, Dart cylinder head specialist Tony McAfee , Jon Kasse of Jon Kasse Racing engines, and Darin Morgan of Reher Morrison, they found out that the clean non sooty area is from fuel being completely burnt. This was done on their race cars and several test dyno engines testing out the wetflow bench accuracy . The CFD program showed this too, all the work they have done but the combustion chamber area showed that this would happened but, when they played around in the combustion chamber, they created more clean spots then evidently they got it where they can get over 90% of the combustion chamber clean. They unlocked a perfect chamber for a certain build but not all of them. The late Joe Mondello and Lloyd Creek also did this some years later. Now a ton of cylinder head designers have caught on and doing the samething. I know this is beyond our scope but now you know why you have a shinny clean spot in the combustion chamber. Devon you did a hell of a fob on those heads. You found a sweet spot on a perfect vortex in you chamber their ! See this why I read a lot now instead of doing a S.W.A.G. (Simple Wild Arse Guess ).
Devon, by creating several dimples in the combustion chamber he is creating several vortexes every where. I wonder what his plug readings look like? The Late Great Smokey Yunick did this on one( yes one that's it) of engines in Nascar days and lost terribly and blow the engine up. His findings was this, the combustion chambers showed to many melted aluminium pieces every where and a very pitted piston( melted pits). But like the driver said it was gaining power and then it started going away! Please have that fellow of yours watch his plugs. Now will it help a street driven car? No one has done a test on that yet and posted it.
This will be my last post for bob to chime in! If Bob is so busy, but for someone like Bryce at Dr J's Performance and Darin M. at Reher-Morrison both do at least four different forums and let a lone their. own forums, must not be that busy? I call bs..... Damn even Mike from TA is very busy but he has time to chime in on V8Buick. Darin has developed several cylinder heads in the last five years that take more time then I have but he manages. Its ok, I only wanted his in put but I see that won't happened .
I do have a very important question for the experienced porters in this thread, several of the big name porters and cylinder head designers say"When porting to a specific engine build, your cylinder head will sound a sound. When the induction is out of tune it will make a gurggling sound (like someone with mucus in their lungs.) but, When you port it to the tune, it will howel or whistle !" Is this about true? None of my findings in port and polishing say anything of the sort. but, when the pro's are in Tech Talk forum about flowbenches, that's where I found it at. Here is my almighty question ! How can you flowbench test a cylinder head to a mild build to a all out race head? To me there is to many periameters to consider in both. Even if the cam is off by one degree or two from the factory, that throw's everything out of whack ! Even compression ratio is the same way! By reading Reher-Morrison's Tech Talk #70 Airflow Fallacies, the bench is a damn good starting point but, dyno sheets and time slips are still the only way of proof. Am I right in a nut shell?
I'm here to learn all I can by reading compared to my actual cylinder heads that I have ported over 14 years ago. None of my cylinder heads that I did was ever flow benched but, was on the same engine with a mild build before I ported them to the same engine but much more radical! Here are the engine makes and sizes. My very first was a set of 1970 L Pattern 351 Windsor heads, Exhaust D ported, Intake was ported to the largest gasket available then, angle milled .045", and had valve seats cut out to this, Int. 2.02 & Exh. 1.60. Never been on a engine yet. A set of. Chevrolet's Camel back casting # 462's to a nicely built 383 chevy. A pair of Dart Iron Eagle's to another pretty decent Drag/Street. 383 chevy stroker. A set of 428 Cobra jet cylinder heads that was done pretty radically, inlargened valves, angle milled, ported out pretty thinnly. Those heads went on a actual 428 Cobra Jet engine that sat in 18' foot jet boat, that boat was stupid to ride in after I did that engine and heads. I never did. big block chevy heads but I have done some clean up work on big block Ford heads. I want to challenge my self and see what I can do with Big block Buick heads. I want to start off with a junk pair (cracked) pair of bb Buick heads and see what it looks like and some other things. Yes, I will post before and after and everything in between. that includes rubber moldings before and aft., inlarging valves, bowel work, full port work up, graphs of changes made, and anything any of you want to see. Remember I'll be cutting the ports in half, one of each port cut side ways and one of each up and down. Basically showing a side length profile of the ports and a chance to see the ports from top and bottom length wise too. The cylinder heads will not b flowed at all.Does anyone have a junk set of bbb heads laying around?
