...or cheat with an aftermarket 455 head and custom cam for the valve layout. Lotsa' machine work and custom parts.
Who knows? I did speak w/ RM briefly about it a couple of years ago. I don't remember if he said if someone actually did it or not. I hear the bolt pattern is the same except for the extra row of holes, not impossible to add them to the head. Might even be in the right place on the ones that have the extra holes. Think about it, tough block, decent crank with some work. If one can be made for a 455, a nail might not be that far off. Gonna spend some $$ on a cam, but the $1000 I was quoted isn't too far from a custom roller for other unusual makes. Intake fabbed... If the goal is over 700 hp, your gonna spend some dough somewhere. Wonder if a scrap head could be sliced, diced and rewelded to the nail valve layout? Likely better just to buy a cam, it's not going to look like a nail anymore... What could that block take girdled up and filled? Wasn't a bit of nitro run through them way back? Obviously a machinist would have to do this, not economical to pay for a one-off. While we're in dreamland...
Those are my thoughts, too. I asked this question to Gary about the early heads as well as the late heads because I wanted to know what he'd found out so far with his own research. I would not recommend either the early heads because of the reasons you stated, or the late '75-'76 because of the chamber. Gary, My '67 heads with Shannon's work are sitting on the floor...if you would like to have them, they are yours at no cost. The usual cracks have been brazed at one point, welded at another. They don't leak. The pictures I shared earlier are of these heads. Stage 1 stainless valves from TA, dual springs and good retainers from TA as well. Bronze guides. They have some porting by me in the early '90's, bowl blending done, intake and exhaust was done too, but without a flow bench. The exhaust valves sit on hardened seat inserts. I haven't put these heads up for sale before, because I don't want to see someone having trouble with them after all the repair work, even though they've been fine for me. If you're looking for a max effort head, maybe some of the work I've done on these will help, maybe just the parts themselves might help. I'm near Detroit, MI. If you or a friend can pick these up, they're yours. Devon
Since this thread is all over the place, 8ad did you see thread with the fellow with the 61 buick with the turbo nailhead ? Awesome car with built up engine. Cracked the 400 turbo at around 2500 rpm with about 400 hp and about 800 tq. Don't think he made it past that rpm. The sbb guys are about to be getting heads and intake and then the race is on to see who is porting them and getting the #s. Should be fun. I guess the sets of iron sbb heads I have sitting will stay that way for awhile. Back to the op, after seeing what the guys that build these 455s use I would not use stock rods or no girdle. Why do all this math and planning and top parts to get this hp range you are shooting for just to have it possible come apart the 2nd or 3rd time you floor it? Just wondering Just remembered, somewhere I seen on this site pictures of if I remember right some hemi heads from the 60s made to run on a nailhead. Don't know how that worked out
61 Nailhead turbo...No I don't think I've seen it. The forum only seems to go back so far. The one I'm thinking of is a 64 and has a link to Flickr with 300 some photos, with an awesome shop in the background. http://www.348-409.com/forum/threads/aluminum-409-build.22051/page-3 Not Buick related, but some creative machining to a 409 head. The above link shows the premise in pics on this one page without going through too many pages of forum. They milled off the top of the head and added stock to it. I searched this a couple of years ago to see if people were still doing this for oddball projects. Some one off heads and billet crank were done for the Pontiac 301T block, which is seriously beefy! I'm including these as the methods follow some of the prior discussion, as well as the nebulous nature of this thread! I'd rather see this than hear more big names dropped. This is how a guy makes a name for himself.
The reason I asked is because I was thinking of doing it, not the cam route but the slice and weld route. Was thinking the lifter angle would make it not work, but if you look at the stupid angle mopar lifters are on makes me think it could work now. I guess the Nail Head block is pretty tough, no girdle needed I don't think because if the forced induction guys don't need one with the factory heads........ Unless with it now being able to spin faster than 5,000 RPM into the 7,500 RPM + range then it might need one because of that? With the Nail block oil mods aren't required either because of its better from the factory than a 455 oil system. And if a girdle is needed it would be an easier one to make because its a skirted block. With 2.500" mains a mopar raw crank forging could be used to make a drop in 4340 forged crank for that engine in as long of a stroke that will fit. For an intake adapters for a Ford intake would be the fastest most economical way to put an intake on it and be easy to try many different ones as well. The Nail Head and the Ford engines both have the number 1 cylinder on the passenger side, same forward cylinder for both engines basically. And I have a few undisclosed details for it as well.:Brow: But what would it be called now that its not using nails for valves and the heads are no longer on a horizontal plane and it has a Ford intake on it? (the intake would really probably actually be an Edelbrock, lol) With the dist. in the rear of the engine can't really call it a BBB can we? A Nail block maybe or a Nail block BBB headed intake Ford; NB BBBh IF? A Buick hybrid? Maybe call it a Buick Spike Head now?(because spikes are bigger than nails) Any better names?:grin: The Nail Head low end was built to SPIN with a forged crank skirted block, but when they designed the heads they dropped the ball to make it run to its potential. Doing this engine would get 750 N/A HP a lot easier and more reliable than the 455 build being dreamt about, and would probably cost less to boot.:TU: Could probably set the HP goal to 1,000 N/A HP or even higher with this build.:shock: Back on subject, BBB aftermarket aluminum heads would be easier to port to get the flow needed for big HP.(I wrote port) Derek
How about the " nailenstien...frankenail " or just a bad a$$ hot rodded engine. OP what do you think ? Lower end might be a cake walk and top end is the puzzle, but that is the direction you are wanting to go in.:TU: That almost leads back to the big chief heads thread..
My apologies for the derailment here, but this is still pertains to a BBB head, ported even. Derek, I think you touched on my thoughts exactly. Donor crank, skirted block, easy girdle, 7500 rpm, better port starting point, check. Why stop at 750 hp, the basic building blocks suggest more. My opinions on custom cam were that, well....one wouldn't use a Thumpr', and the valve layout in the heads has to match the lobes anyways. Carve the snout to a different shape, opening up more choices for timing. My calls informed me that a blank already has the lobes roughed. It would also be smart, if having to make a few cores, to do a bunch at a time. Once the first one is carved out, the next 10 are only minutes away. They are heat treated in batches, ie. one costs the same as however many you can fit into the oven. Concerning the cam, I don't know if the crank throws are the same if using a different source. Would you still use a grooved crank @ 7500? I'm thinking oil film here. With a 10" deck would you add some throw? Now the cast oil tube is a concern. A horizontal mill w/ a 3' drill bit takes care of that. If not simply tubed for a tad bit of extra room, then one has to think about another method of oil delivery. Might be simple, haven't looked. I still think these are better than band-aiding up a glass block. At the stock stroke, 6.535" and 1.645" add up nicely, what do those remind you of? Pontiac rods use same bearing as Nail. How about tough parts off the shelf, minimal mods? 401 roughly .060" over is 4.250, 425 .038 over is 4.350", see what I'm getting at? Provided a fellow has the ability to get past those obstacles, the other minutiae wouldn't be that hard, having access to machinery. I realized it's been painfully touched on regarding how original the engine would be, but this might fit the norm of acceptable mods and the fact the block and head types would still be Buick. Oops, did I just drive the core price up? Don't you love runaway threads, this one is as scattered as a four year old's brain. FrankenBuick (Frankenbeast) is alive!
Actually a Nail uses the same rod bearings as a 400/430/455 BBB not a Pontiac. As for going the cam route push rod placement may be a concern with the 4 center cylinders but maybe offset lifters and offset rockers could fix that?($$$$) 10" of deck height is plenty for more stroke, a bbc for example has a 9.800" DH and can run a 4.250" stroke when building a bbc 496 stroker. And if I wanted more DH I could lower the crank up to a 1/4" depending on a few other factors. I wouldn't have more than 1 cam core made if I went the cam route, unless there were more than myself building one, if I get the lathe I want I could make my own cam core.:Brow: If I were to do this I would go the other way because everything else would fall into place a lot easier even making a Ford intake work would be easier slicing the heads in 4 pieces swapping the 2 center ones and welding them back together.(basically) This way all that needs to be changed in the short block would basically be pistons if someone else wanted a set of heads for their Nail block to make it SPIN! A set of adapters for the Ford intake of their choice to top it off. Of coarse things like push rod length and converting to hollow push rods and oil through the lifter liters, probably plug the oil hole in the deck and small things like that. A lot more plug and play than the cam change because offset lifters limits the engine to being a solid roller and would be a valve train geometry nightmare.(I looked into this a little closer than you have I think?o No: maybe?) Plus the Nail Head exhaust would be made to bolt on if possible? Pistons would be easy, the BBB AutoTec pistons would be great for this project! And bbc rods are inexpensive and plentiful with a lot of different lengths and types to chose from.:TU: Even using the factory forged crank with BBC rods it can be stroked .050" to 3.690" OR being it is a forged crank it can be welded and stroked even farther. As for using the mopar raw forging to make a Buick crank I think most v8 4 stroke cranks have the same 360 degrees of rotation and if they can be made to fit a block they will work.(not a crank expert so don't quote me on that even though I think I'm right maybe?) I do have my own mill in my garage sure would love to upgrade that thing to a Proto Trak!(turning handles sucks if you ever ran an programmable Proto Trak!) A friend of mine has his own engine machine shop. So I do have access, time is another story.o No: (but if someone had the $$ to pay me to build them one I could probably find the time? Until then I will try to save the $$$ to do it for myself for that 64 Skylark below when(if) I can) So in conclusion the custom cam route would need; 1) custom solid roller cam($$$) 2) custom offset solid roller lifters($$$) 3) custom offset rockers($$$) Possibly would need push rod holes widened from front to back on heads that might interrupt the center in. ports which could hurt flow. 4) custom intake($$$), using a Ford intake probably can't be adapted because the center ports would be to far away to route through the adapter and would disrupt flow to much if it could be machined in. 5) change to oil through the push rods like the other way.($ Not to bad). 6) Figure out the new firing order with custom cam because #1 cylinder is on the opposite side as a 455. Slice and weld way; 1) Slice and weld heads ($$$) 2) oil through push rods($) plug block, this goes for both ways 3) oil through lifters of the off the shelf or custom cam grind of choice or keep cam that is in there 4) Edelbrock heads would be easier for rockers, but 455 rockers could probably be configured to work? 5) intake adapters for Ford intake ($$ shouldn't be to bad) 6) Ford intake of choice($) Back on subject, port the runners so more A/F can flow more gooder and burnt gasses can flow out more faster.:Smarty: Derek
:laugh: You're starting to think about it.... Keep looking at it, you'll see what I'm saying. Many of these problems are off the shelf, and the rest is no big deal if you have a B-port in the garage. Focus on the solutions....
Back to the topic of making big power with a 455 NA: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?290461-Rotating-Assembly-Package
Hate to hang on to this tangent, just wanted to point out a couple of things, for the purpose of using BBB heads, and maintaining a fantasy thread. Esp. a new and improved more gooder one. It's always better to buy parts that more or less drop in, but... Since we are talking about building Buicks here, some challenges and creativity are always infused with these projects. If they were as easy as ordering a crate, most of this group of people wouldn't be here. My fictitious scenario assumes that the guy doing the work is building it for himself, and has the skills and machinery to do all of it. It would be a bit silly to pay a shop to try to do this. One could just start with an easier platform to build. That being said, where are the limitations? The physical characteristics of the castings? The creativity and skill of the machinist/builder? The checkbook? The motivation or drive? Everyone decides where these things fall on their projects. 750-1000+ hp builds that aren't commonplace platforms have their challenges, pick which challenges you want... The aftermarket re-boxes w/ new part #'s, why can't we utilize the same thinking? I bet there's rockers already out there close enough to work, with a BBB head (sarcasm). So you might have to relocate a hole, if not quite right... Pontiac rods are already being put in Nails, RM told me so. (There's my big name drop :laugh Nail roller lifters exist, .842" bodies w/ hemi tie bars. I forget exact source. It would be easier to move the cam lobes, since you need a custom anyways. Loctited set screws to plug the oil passage up to the rockers. The main galley could be moved, such as above the cam. Look at what you have to do to an Olds diesel block to run 9000rpm.... If you can weld and heat treat a head, an intake shouldn't be too hard. Cam would still be easier. How about a Nascar take-off for an intake? There's L and R side forward ones. Who wouldn't be using modified or custom headers at this point? You could still call it a Buick. Definitely gonna cost some $$ Isn't how this was done back in the day?
Here is what I am trying to explain, look at where the push rod holes are in the Nail cylinder head 1st pic compared to the 455 head 2nd pic. And 455 roller lifters will work in the Nail Head block. Derek
Cool, thanks for the clarification on the pushrod locations, I see what you mean now. I think what I was interpreting was something very.....different.:idea2: I guess one would have to set a 455 head right on the block to see exactly what needs to be overcome. Tough to move the lifter locations, unless you mill them out and start over, but while were at it, lets carve out a new block! Could be done in a garage, right? LOL! This could be fairly challenging. Dream nearly killed now... Previous posts edited, as I can't see any benefit to leaving them as-is. Any more pics of ported Buick heads to drool over?
Curious if a fellow could move the lifter locations (influenced by 4100 Caddy cam tunnel construction), I looked at a Nail block. Transposing the 455 lifter bore and cam lobe locations would certainly interfere with the cam journal locations in the Nail. Now I see why it hasn't been done. Not saying it's impossible, just that one would have to be REALLY dedicated to doing it. Now we're back to "the Billet head thread" Maybe the Big Dawg can help.:grin: 4v ohc time? I'll just agree that it's a sturdy block, and leave it at that!
