Oh, not my work! AMC prostock heads. Wally Booth, maybe? It was brought up to section and stack heads,and I had remembered these. More AMC Buick pro stock These might be what Gary was thinking of... As far as engine building theory, I was pointing out that it's better to work with the attributes of the package before buying parts. Understanding how it all relates and works in the real world is what makes a good builder. No matter how knowledgeable anyone is, things are learned every day.
No offense taken, just for the clarity of the board.:TU: It's nearly impossible to have a head porting discussion without touching on other concepts. After all, this is only one part of a huge relationship of proportions and ratios and complicated physics. My comment on "what is your goal?" wasn't directly aimed at Bob, but an answer was appreciated. I'll touch on that later. Inevitably, the subject of this thread will always go beyond what we can discuss here and lead to "what are you trying to do?" with a project. The answers will be different with varied goals. Some of us are not as good at explaining things, but are good "moter builders". I always appreciate a well written tech "article". I think water will be found before a Nailhead can be over ported. Definitely still room for improvement though. [As far as seeing higher FPS than the norm, I recall a thread on Speedtalk (Advanced?) regarding 4 valve high port heads and speeds over the short turn...I think there's some to be learned there, as the Nail has a similar layout.] I also have a couple of Nail projects, so this is of particular interest to me...
I recall a similar example to this, although NOT Buick. I think every head porter has done this... I started a build with an aluminum head that was (theoretically) the right size, but lazy with airspeed and low on CFM. I did what I could to pick up air speeds. The dead areas were already cast into it, and it wasn't going to get filled. The problem was partially from locating the raw casting on the CNC mill at the factory, to cube it up. Not core shift, cube shift uzzled:. The port ended up a bit more than what I wanted for CSA and CFM in a street car, but perfect for the top end of the powerband. Sounded Bad-ass on the run stand, and 180* headers gave a unique sound. Should easily exceed the HP goal by 50. So, I replaced them with a smaller port version (raised to fit the intake) that I was able to carve out excluding some dead areas. Overall 10 CFM less, and a more ideal speed over the short turn, more even velocities port mapping. Why'd I do that? Idled 400 rpm lower, with 2" more idle vacuum, even with a bit less timing...best of all, it revved up like a weed-whip on Nitrous. A blip went to instant rev-limiter. Kill 20hp and say hello to better midrange response! Deceptively smooth sounding for a 400" 11-1, 270* @ .050" pump gas special. Should be easy to predict what will happen with the fill.:TU:
Thank you guys for schooling me and others. I have a question though, since we are on raised port floors. Has anyone ever went higher then the TA stage 2 te heads? I seen A.M.& P. did what I was wanting to be tested, oval port! For a 430 bbb that engine is stout. My in put on oval port thing still stands though. Why haven't most drag racers of bbb start implementing this design in there porting regiment ? Its proven that you get better velocity and fuel suspension then rectangle ports! Plus in reading on port heights and valve angle from the pro's, they all say the. valve angle also determines the port height and shape. Why isn't anyone actually looking in to this? The person that actually said that are Curtis Boggs and Darin Morgan. I would figure someone would atleast do a computer program to confirm this! I called Sonny to see if this is true and he said " computitional fluid dynamics confirms this and it is what all your top cylinder head people are using to cut down on time." I looked at am&p's 430 bbb and seen the heads and seen what was done to the heads, it confirmed my theory. Now, for my 750 goal, it is possible. just call Greg, he'll confirm that for you. Stage 1 automotive didn't use a lot of stuff to gain more power, for example a dry sump oiling system is worth 20 hp, a custom ground cam is easily worth another 10-15 hp, installing a bronze key lifter guides is worth 5-10 hp, and there is several more things they didn't do but they achieved 750 hp using everything that is easily accessible . I try and see all the things that will help produce power without going to all out race heads. one of the evils of doing this project is oil control! Drain back to the pan, crank whipping the oil, maintaining constant oil pressure, having equal oil pressure on both sides of the block, and stablelizing valvetrain parts! By doing all of these things will net me more power. Has anyone tried using Nascar type roller rockers? Large arch roller rockers. All I ask is don't beat me down but help guide me. I have done chevy and fords, that have went above 800 hp after I learned the ins and outs of them. Its not real hard to do something like I'm doing, once you learned your engine capabilities and someone that is damn good with automachining. That's why I want to do this project, I want to show everyone it can be done and show and explain what is needed to achieve this power. I'm always looking to produce more power! I just consulted a best friend of mine in Michigan on His 421 stroker smb chevy and that darn thing is in a full weight 80's buick regal and is exspected to very low 10's and on a 200 shot of fogger system, to run 8.03 in the quarter. All I did wad consult with him on his build and suggested certain for him! I will down load the video for you all to see the engine in car and sound of it as it was first fired. That about sounding absolutely mean! Wow... Thank you all on showing different things that is very helpful. please keep this thread going by showing ported heads and flow sheets. Trust me, this thread will not only help me but, several others wanting to know the something as me. Sincere Gary M.
Paul, now here is what I was trying to say to Subcool, can the prostocks do better with a different more breathable head? Definitely ! The prostock teams are optimizing there engine to that head not optimizing that head to the engine . I seen what the 1004 hp bbb had and seen there is places you could made more power. For example, thermo coating, oil shedding coat, billet heads and so on. He only did what the machine shop was told to do, which is cool. I'm always looking for more proven power. here are some of the things I would've done different , light weight crank, light weight rods, ran a different bore to stroke combo but still came out to the same cid! It would've came up to about $38,000.00 for my build but, I would have more power to boot. That's why I look at other builds and access There builds and see where I can make more power. Yes it wrong for me to do that but, that's how you learn how to build power, implement things that are already proven to make power! I'll try not to do this in the open any more but I will consult with some of you on my accessment ok? Sincere Gary M.
Do you have your own shop? I wondering by the way you are doing cylinder head testing! I was talking about more of an elongated oval port. I would try and use clay and make the heads you posted elongated oval ports and flow them to see the results, also try raising the floor of the ports as well. I would use clay because its not permanent and you can remove it easily . Gary M.
Most realize that oval port works better. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something...but, It doesn't make economic sense for a customer to start with or buy rectangle port heads and then pay a local hero (or regionally top machinist) to convert them to oval port, or radically raise ports, or drastically change a casting like with welding or half a gallon of marine putty. BTW, I'm not including Chris's fine work shown. That is a reasonable amount of expert work within the constraints of the casting. The builder has to decide at what point is it better to buy more suitable parts or spend it on labor to get there. You gotta work with what you're starting with, or have enough in the budget to do things "ideal". It never quite works that way. The budget is ALWAYS the limitation somewhere. I gather that most of the builds a Buick guy might see are far from max effort. If you've ever been down this road before it's better off to start with a casting that's closer to your needs, unless you own the machines and have lots of spare time. R&D is on you. This is not a bash, only acknowledging that others suggest that a 750hp stock rod, block, iron head Buick is pushing reasonable limits, and that at a certain point it is better to spend a bit more up front than to waste your valuable shop time (and skill) cobbling together weak parts. Thanks again Chris, for your valuable pics and input on Buicks!
I understand your point but The 1004 hp engine is indeed a well plained max effort bb buick for those cylinder heads! Now on the oval port deal, its not hard to figure out that a simple epoxy in the floor and rounding the corners will net substantial hp gains. If you went farther in and did a port lay out of a flow box ( cheap and easy to make) anyone can make this work better. Yes you still have to have the new layed out one intake and exhaust port bench flowed but at least its not all 16 ports! Thus is money saved and time well spent Gary M.
Gary There are BBB billet heads in the making that will flow upwards of 500 cfm. I have someone that wants a 2000+ hp twin turbo BBB but I need a set of heads that flow 450 cfm at high velocity to accomplish that. I understand the part about maximizing engine performance using available parts but most are on a budget which is a set of rules in it self. Coatings, special processes and "One Off" parts add up in a hurry. By the time we were done with our last set of billet pistons and pins it was $2700. The total parts cost on our 7 liter hydroplane engine not counting our labor is $65K As you know Pro Stock have a pile of engine component rules to work around. All reciprocating parts have a minimum weight and most parts material composition is also specified. They do get to use a short deck height block and have the option of using Compressed Graphite Iron. What would help us help you is if you would post the rules you have decided on so far for your 750 hp iron block and head project and give us some idea of the areas you need to make a decision on. That will keep the discussions from going way off into places that don't matter. Paul
8ad f85, the way I would do the flow box is like this, it also shows your thickness and your most critical point of no return on max port work. when molding a stock port and having it set to dry, your mold is set then of your ports, average your thickness of port walls and have them coated a certain color to certain thickness ( not max thinness) then and a different color for max thinness ( point of no return ). By doing this you can change your port to any desired shape you want to get max velocity, air speed, and so on. This will then be your shape to achieve to get what your looking for! I see you are well. educated in the cylinder head field too. Have you got a chance to see my ported 351 Windsor heads yet? Gary M.
Paul, there is no rules except stock block and heads at this moment ! I'm open to anything that will help me achieve my goal of 750 hp on racing gas. coatings and everything in between is allowed. I just want to be able to show people it is possible but it is not cheap! I know I'll be pushing the limits on the block! I'm welling to pay the piper though... Paul, have you contacted Mike Moran of Moran Motorsports on the Twin turbo deal? Mike is about the most knowledgable person on turbos out there! He also does billet cylinder heads to accomplish your goal now Gary M.
Gary, do you already have your sights set on a particular Big Block Buick head to focus on? There's a lot of talk about the early "big port" castings from '67 and '68, and also talk about the '75-'76. Devon
Yes I have had conversations with Mike mainly concerning his injectors. I was looking at the possibility of replacing the 3 injectors per port I was using with a single one of his. Decided to use the BigStuff3 EFI instead where I could phase each injector in as the duty cycle hit 50% We were running Top Sportsman and crossing over to 10.5 outlaw class. We were getting 2400 hp out of a 430 SBF using twin Precision 88s on Methanol. Car was a 3200 lb 49 ford. Best of 6.82 @ 210 mph. That's with a converter and a 400TH trans. I've worked side by side with 2 of the biggest names (at that time) in the turbo drag racing field and spent many hours on the phone with others. To my surprise the ones that work with clutch cars have no clue what the engine configuration needs are for high horsepower turbo cars using torque converters and they are distinctly different in head and cam design. I would go to Steve Morris for advice on turbo engines and especially for turbo gasoline/automatic trans combinations So back to your project. How about displacement limits? You originally indicated that you wanted to stay near 455 cu in. Can you go bigger? Pretty Please? Paul
Gary, I think you would really be doing yourself a favor if you found yourself a used starter flow bench. To be able to do your own porting and practice your ideas would keep you busy for a long time. Just think, you could check the velocity, cfm vains, raiseing the floor ect. and let me tell you, you will be hooked. Then you could come on here and tell everyone what you are finding and not what all the big guys can do for us. After all, this is a porting thread. The bench doesn't have to be perfect, just has to be repeatable for you to have a little fun. You need to give it some thought :beers2:
I understand you are willing to try some exotic things with this engine and all of us are behind you cheering you on. Like Paul said though it would be silly for us to talk about "money is no object" options for this build unless you can actually afford to spend that money... To me if I were using a stock block without a girdle I would treat each engine component and a temporary part for testing purposes, it will not likely end up being a reliable engine over the long run so why spend oodles of money on really high end parts? Not that I would attempt your mission, but my advice is to use good rods, good pistons, and do the experimental work on the heads that you are into.... Spending tons of cash on an un-girdled max effort 455 just is not a bright thing to do. Do not get me wrong, I think it is cool that you want to try doing things to push the limits but we already know the engine needs a girdle at that power level....
All this talk about 750 to 800 hp got me looking back at a couple of my old engine masters mags. Mike at amp has a few of his engines tore down for the world to see. Gary, you need to get some ideas there :TU:
I would love to see the insides of this one: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/0907phr-building-a-721hp-buick-engine/
I have a couple of his builds they tore down with pictures. I was thinking [ kinda day dreaming really..lol ] Gary have you ever thought about going a little tougher rout to get 700 HP? Like say a 350 sbb.... or the even harder rout ...a NAILHEAD....LOL. It would really put you on the map with the engine builders. If you decide to take this assignment, this message will self destruct in 60 seconds...or should we say mission impossible..uzzled:
