Underdog(Steve Caruso) runs the Crower level 3 cam with a 3.42:1 gear TH350 and he gets 20 MPG with his setup. His compressions ratio is 9.5:1 if I recall correctly so you would have to bump that up if you wanted to try to duplicate his results and of coarse you would have to run premium fuel. But yes a 3.08 with the 212 would probably be good for your combo. GL Derek
yes a 3.08 and the 212 would go well with his setup. recurve distributer and recalibrate carb and will run well. carb is already very lean with the headers and the ethanol in fuels today. would feel an increase in power with this combo. going to an sp3 intake and ported big valve heads with .060 shaved off them would push the engine into the 300 plus hp range I believe. add a 2200 convertor and I bet the car would make some strong lower 14 second timeslips with great mpg. I think this combo would be one Gary could approve of.
Also I've never swapped a cam, will I be measuring endplay and dealing with possible new "thrust" or "wear plate"?
no thrust or wear plate to deal with. new timing chain and gears. consider advanceing cam 4 degrees. I would go atleast 2 jet sizes bigger. new rods also. bump secondary rods and hangers up one size. there is an adjustment for tension on secondary flaps. I personally like then slightly looser. there is a set screw on the underside of flap by linkage and then a flat tip screwdriver tip in center of linkage the you can loosen slightly. secondarys you would change when engine is running to get best power. you could send carb to mark at quadrajet power or ken at everyday performance for a much better tune as they both really know the carb and know what inside carb will need to be replaced/adjusted get you best power and economy. I believe both do tune carb on a running engine also. I know Mark replaced air bleeds on mine since it had holes drilled in throttle plates. Mentioned that would give better idle. im sure theres other reasons also. just waiting for body shop to finish so I can see how carb works. Both guys are on this board and I haven't heard anything bad about either. as far as recurve on distributer I would get a weight and spring kit and an electronic conversion. put of the lightest springsthat should give all timing in at 26-2800 . and set timing at 34 at 2800 rpm as all timing will be in and that will determine initial timing. Larry has a timing thread on here. links have been posted on many threads or do a search .it explains in better detail.
Thanks my dist and advance timing is already set up like that so I should be good there. I was hoping to not have to dig into the carb, since it was rebuilt less than 2 years ago for my setup. This cam change would require bigger jets and rods? My friend recommended timing gears instead of chain, what do you think? Also TA recommended their 1522B double roller that is $120.00, seems like a steep price?
My recommendation still stands, though the other suggestions are solid too. Mine is the easiest and cheapest though. :grin: Bump DCR to match that camshaft for premium fuel (7.5-7.75 DCR), put better gears under it and you just transformed it into something not much less powerful than the other suggestions, plus it'll get better mileage and last 4x longer. You said yourself the carb is already tuned for your combination. OEM (Federal Mogul) cam has a 71* IVC point, so it'll need between 10:1 and 10.25:1 static compression ratio to get you between 7.5:1 and 7.75:1 dynamic compression. Expect a couple degrees of slop in the stock timing chain (which is matched to the cam, so no degreeing necessary), so I figure around 73* total. Compression doesn't have to be balls-on accurate, but it needs to be fairly close. Try not to get it above 7.75 or much less than 7.5 and you're golden. Higher compression will make it more efficient too, so you'll probably see another 2 MPG or so from simply bumping the compression. It'll help offset the extra cost of premium fuel. You can thank me later. :grin: Gary
Just to calrify what kicked off my ambition to change stuff is necessity as well, the car developed a ticking that seemed to be from the flexplate area. That is encompassed in another thread. Inspection cover off revealed no cracks visible and no other known source (exhaust, fan, etc) Next recommended step was remove oil pan to inspect and see if anything was out of wack or getting knocked by the crank/etc. (Probably 1st time off for this engine) well it had plastic timing gear pieces in the pan. So I will be removing the timing cover to inspect, and likley replace the timing set, and figured while I'm doing that might as well put the TA212 cam in that I have on the shelf already. This project now also includes most likley pulling the engine and inspecting the flexplate in full, and I expect to be replacing that as well as it will probably be cracked.
I do appreciate your input and welcome all ideas. I plan to get a 3.08 or maybe 3.23 at some point. Labor to have gears and spacer installed correctly isnt cheap and having heads shaved isnt either. But money is relative to different people you know? I would gladly buy a whole axle setup cheaper and install myself though. There are a few things you refer to that are over my head, "DCR" which I dont hear people refer to, now Static in the 10 range that sounds familiar and probably many engine shops refer to static alot. "71* IVC point" I do not know to what that refers. I will be removing the timing cover soon to inspect and probably replace the timing set. 73 degrees total is over my head as to what it refers to. In my situation was thinking putting the cam I have in, and buying lifters would be cheaper overall since I expect to be putting a timing set in anyway.
hopefully you had a pro qjet builder do carb. you might be ok with cam. mostly when you change air flow or compression ratio change the fuel metering will need an adjustment. if you got a rebuild for a parts store or remanufacture shop. its going to need to be gone thru. summit racing has gear/chain setups for 60 -80 bucks. get a double roller. and as Gary and I stated a bump in compression will increase power . these engines do like atleast 9 to 1 to really wake up. even with stock cam. the 212 will really open up also.do the cam and compression bump together with a 3.08 gear and I think you will be impressed with outcome.
Cliff rebuilt the carb supposedly to my setup for $400 something shipped. Its kinds sad that I could have left the 2bbl on there for more low end but not sure I want to convert back. Is there any brand youd stay awy from or recommend on the double roller timing set. Also.. dont do gears instead of chain? Lifters, any in particular? Thanks again everybody.
Delphi lifters if you can get them. TA carries them. Gear drive is costly . and noisy and needs thrust plate. SA gear is OK and not expensive. If tune right the 4 barrel should not have lost any low end. But as Gary stated cam isn't going to gain as much as bump in compression .example is when turbo cars have boost come in then is compressed. Boom more power. Also cams need a certain compression ratio to operate at its design. Its called a combination Its design is for all parts to match in certain ranges. You are at bolt on levels. If the parts don't match or are not needed then increase in power is minimal. Take Steve Caruso's Buick. Crower cam with proper compression ratio,stock intake and exhaust, stock heads,light stall and mid 3 series gear and is one of the strongest quickest cars here.sure there are faster cars but they do have many more modifications then his. Its not about the parts you bolt on as the parts working together.
You can do .030-040 with out shaving intake.that would put you about 8.6-8.7 at .030 Possibly more since a 69 block would have had thinner steel head gaskets. I would mill intake face of head rather then make intake not interchangable.
Well, these are 72 heads I put on when one of the 69 heads cracked. I used a replacement gasket but cant remember if its steel or not. It may sound odd but I dont know if the heads are already milled once or not either, I just new they were recently rebuilt and got a good deal on them in a batch of parts.
I'm reading in other threads people changing vlave springs for the TA212. TA themself told me stock springs are fine, is that correct? Is it shaving heads that causes need for different valvesprings?
No its not shaving heads that cause it. Worn out 40 year old springs designed for 350 lift can't handle 450 lift . you can use stock but it can be a problem later.should you replace springs? Yes. Can you get away with what you have? For now yes.
Actually maybe I'm in luck anyway for all I know the springs are updated, the heads were rebuilt when the guy I got them from was going to run the 212 cam. Not sure if I can tell by looking at the springs. I suppose its not easy to tell if the heads have been shaved while they are still on the block either?
