Yes, you gain torque and lose higher RPM horsepower with the Crower level 2 over the Federal Mogul stock cam when using a 750 CFM carb. If you want lots of low RPM torque, go with a large base Rochester 2g and the Crower level 2 cam with low comp (or factory) pistons. Torque is massive from about 1200-3800 RPM (staying over 350 ft. lbs. through this range), peaking around 2400 RPM (same as Federal Mogul cam with a 2g carb, incidentally) with 365-385 ft. lbs. (depending on setup) with the Crower level 2 cam. It will have about 10-15 ft. lbs. more than the Federal Mogul cam in this range and at peak torque when using similar dynamic compression ratios. HP drops off fast after 4100 RPM though (where it peaks with 235-245 HP) when used with the 2g carb/Crower level 2 cam. It will have about 10-15 less peak HP than the Federal Mogul cam's peak HP. Expect less numbers when using untouched parts and low compression and greater numbers when some head/manifold cleanup has been performed, along with raised dynamic compression and polished combustion chambers. The Crower level 2 cam and Federal Mogul cam are similar with powerbands when using the Rochester 2g small base carburetor, with smaller numbers differences between the two (5-10 difference on torque and hp). The Quadrajet wakes the stock cam up more than it does the Crower level 2 cam where the difference between torque/hp tradeoff becomes greater. The Federal Mogul cam gives a rock bottom minimum power rating of 340 ft. lbs. and 210 hp when using a 300 CFM 2g carb and 8:1 compression on regular gasoline. Bump the compression to premium ratings (10+:1) and a 500 CFM large base 2g, and the Federal Mogul cam produces 395 ft. lbs. and 280 HP. What's interesting is that the peak torque's RPM doesn't move up like you'd expect it to, but the peak HP RPM does, making the powerband even wider. Anyway, I did some research/testing on this very setup some time back. Cool info. Would make a kick ass truck or large/heavy car engine with highway gears. Oh by the way...use single exhaust. A 2.5" mandrel bent with a Dynomax super turbo, and 2" mandrel bent pipes leading into a Flowmaster 2into1 "Y" pipe scavenger series with the patended "D" ports. Should do the trick nicely. Did you know: -that a single exhaust has advantages over dual exhaust, such as scavenging at all RPMs, even engine pulses, quieter operation with a single muffler, longer lasting with more effective moisture evacuation... -that a 2.5" mandrel bent single pipe flows more CFM than a press bent 2" dual exhaust? There's more, but I'm tired and need to get sleep before work tonight. Gary
69 350 with 72 heads oiling thru the pushrods but running the 69 rockers. Stock cam currently, 4bbl Qjet built by cliff, 2.56 rear diff, stock converter, stage 1 intake, hooker headers, dual 2.5 unch with x pipe and flowmaster 40s. Stock internal everything else, so stock compression. Sounds like crower level 1 would be nice. Is the TA "RV cam" similar?
I ran the rv cam. Was OK. Rpm band will be similar to stock. decent pull. But low end torque popped up after bumping compression up. With stock gears Was very strong low end. Very good torque from idle. Upper rpm was flat. Shifted at 4200. I think the level 2 would be better. But never tryed it
The TA RV cam isn't the same thing as what you see in the catalog. They have switched it around and the specs aren't the same, according to what Mike told me last I inquired. The best thing you could do for that setup is get a 3.23 or 3.08 gear, match DCR to the stock cam for premium fuel and let it transform. Whatever you do, don't get anything less than the Crower level 3 with that current setup you have, otherwise you will hurt your power. Either that or keep the cam stock. It is a lot more advanced (technical/engineered, not degrees) than you think. I doubt that will happen, so I'm going to bow out and let the others have at it. Good Luck... Gary
Comparing the RV cam to the OEM cam is like comparing apples to oranges. Not even close, sorry. You'd know this if you ever actually used a (earlier model) stock cam other than the worn out one with poorly matched DCR. RV cam is a low RPM torque grunt cam. There is no upper RPM. Lobe intensities are so ridiculous (this is where it gets its torque, what little over stock it gives) that it wears out in a few thousand miles, but that won't matter because it sucks so much otherwise that it'll be getting swapped out for something better after a few hundred (or less). This is why TA redesigned it. Those catalog cams are years old, most are either redesigned and the catalog hasn't been updated to reflect it, antiquated, or just outright mismatched for 350's (the cams are made with big blocks in mind). Crower level 2 would be better, yes. Still don't advise that though, not with Stage1 intake, large tube headers, a high RPM exhaust system used with a stock stall and interstate gears... That car would be totally working against itself. Already gave advice on that though. Either go Federal Mogul, Crower level 3, or TA 212. Otherwise, a bone stock wore out 350-2 with single exhaust will dust his doors with his setup, and still may anyway if he doesn't change those gears. I used to do it regularly with mine to guys who threw parts on their engines and wondered why my bone stock beater ran circles around theirs. Be better off selling all that "go fast" stuff if you want low end grunt and keeping your gears. Stock manifolds/small tube headers with small tube exhaust for velocity is your ticket to success with street setups. Gary
Thanks. I am looking online when looking at cams, hopefully updated info. My headers are Hooker, what size is considered small vs large tube? I actually have a TA 212 cam on the shelf I bought with other parts from a guy years ago. Maybe you can advise about using a cam that a guy put in his rebuilt motor, ran it "5 minutes" and blew up pistons due to another problem. Would you say just take it to an engine shop and have them check it out to make sure its runnable? I wasnt sure since its supposed to be important to break one in "properly". Or if an inspection would cost as much as a new one too. I'm open to getting a 3.08 rear, if anyone has one for sale..
Hookers are 1 3/4" primaries, considered the 'large' tube primaries. "Small" tube primaries are the 1 5/8". TA's cams are ground straight up with no advance or retard built into the cams, so you'll need a degreeing wheel to set it to around 4* advance (depending on your DCR and other things). 'Blowing up' pistons during the first 5 mins of running sounds like a timing/detonation issue, or valve to piston clearance issue. Take the heads off it and look it over, or if you're not familiar with engine building, take it to someone. The TA 212 would do well with that setup, as long as you improved your gearing. Higher stall is optional. The ring and pinion/install kit can be bought from a place such as Summit racing for a GM 8.5...unless your car is a '69, in which case it'll have an 8.2. Those are a bit more difficult/expensive to get parts for. TA sells a ring/pinion for it. The 3.42 I think. Gary
Actually a small primary tube header for a small block would be with a 1 1/2" primary tube. Unfortunately being its a Buick the choices of headers are very limited, lucky to have any available at all! But yeah if he wants low RPM torque, stock exhaust manifolds and single ex. and a 2 bbl intake would probably be the way to go. The sbb 350 with a 2 bbl a TH350 trans and a 2.56:1 rear gear wasn't that bad of a driver.(I had one) With that setup the car still had enough power to pull out into traffic. I would imagine that same low compression 2 bbl engine that got a 4 bbl intake "upgrade" and headers with dual exhaust "upgrade" without a compression ratio upgrade would be much slower from a dead stop and would burn more fuel. Derek
I just have the 212 cam not the rest of that motor. Car is a 72 with 8.5 so I could get from summit, 3.08 would go in where a 2.56 was? Is 3.08 enough improvement (I like low rpm freeway)? Would be paying by the hour for someone to put it in, thats whay a whole axle setup would probly save a lot. Looks like 3.08 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aly-gm10308 3.23 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/spz-36212
There are several 3.08 used actual gm gears on eBay. 90 bucks. The 3.08 will be good on hiway. You will notice more pull at hiway speeds and mpg might come up slightly as engine is in a higher power range so engine is not laboring due to lower torque at low rpm. The 212 would be good with the 3.08. Even better would be Alittle more compression. I run a 3.73 but I have 9.6 compression, ported heads ,ta intake and a ta 310 cam with 2700 stall. There are a bunch of 3.73 and 3.42 gears on eBay for under 75 bucks if you decided to go for it.
THanks. Can you trust ebay gears, need a good brand that wont be chinese? Do I need to count teeth? This one says: "For 2.73+ cases OR when replacing a 2.73 or numerically higher gearset - GM CORP 8.5 inch - Use with Factory Differentials" http://www.ebay.com/itm/RICHMOND-EX...8217?hash=item3aaca0e319&vxp=mtr#ht_351wt_684 This one doesnt: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Richmond-Ex...063?hash=item3cd65a70a7&vxp=mtr#ht_2372wt_922
I got original general motors gears. Will be better that some aftermarket. Carrier the gear bolts on has different offset since a 256 gear will be huge as it has 17 teeth. A 4.10 gear will need the carrier closer as it will be 10 teeth. So gear is tiny. Need to take up that space. They make some gears thicker to take up that space. There is a ring gear spacer you can buy or get the proper carrier to offset.
Is it just this spacer? http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-8-5-10-B...8327?hash=item56760bbd67&vxp=mtr#ht_892wt_922
Yes that's the ring gear spacer. You can see in the pic how much bigger the gear is compared to the other. So you need to bring ring gear in
When talking Buick, the 'small vs large' question was in regards to the only two choices available for the Buick, so actually, the 1 5/8" is the 'small' and the 1 3/4" is the 'large'. Although if I wanted to manufacture dialog for the sake of dialog instead of real educational content concerning Buicks, I could bring up other manufacturers and their vast selection of products where there's bound to be something that exists outside of the Buick parts selection spectrum. In other words: yeah. Buick 350 is Buick 350 and the parts are designed as such. Small block chevy has a wide range of CID selections, where a 1 1/2" primary would be better suited for engines around 300 CID or less. Gary
Buicks like taller gears like 3.42 and (numerically) lower, especially with low-mid RPM cams/powerbands. A 3.23 or 3.08 with cams ranging from Federal Mogul, Crower level 3, or TA 212 will be the best choice. I heard Yukon made/makes OEM gears for GM, so would be pretty much the same thing as "OEM" instead of 'aftermarket'. Gary
I prefer one somewhere in-between those. Probably closer to the large one than the small one. More teeth and material = stronger unit with less inclination to walk up the ring gear without having to heavily modify/reinforce the axle housing, when comparing similar material compositions. Everyone has their preferences. I like stuff that lasts. :bla: Incoming Andy and Derek counter arguments...:laugh: Gary
Thanks Gary. Actually the 3.42 is great for a street car. Buicks like them. When racing or an upper rpm small block the lower gears work but its not so much for street. I do agree with you there Gary. The Crower level 3 makes good torque. I run the TA 310 cam right now which likes more gear. I do have the Crower cam just not using it. I have run a stock 350 with 2.73 gears and a stall that on my engine was 2400. I liked it but did want more gear.
2.93, 3.08, 3.23 or a 3.36:1 are great all around street gears with a trans with no O/D with headers, dual ex and a 4bbl car and intake , sorry to disappoint you Gary but I agree with you there. These gears would allow the higher torque and HP band you get with a 4bbl carb with headers and dual exhaust to start moving out of the hole better because of the higher power band. A purpose built street/strip car with a non O/D trans a 3.42, 3.55, 3.64 or a 3.73:1 is a good compromise. It all depends on what purpose the car is being built for. Derek
