These engines were designed for a spherical dish but I think the P76 was the only one that had it from new which is a pity In a 350 it works out to something like 31 - 32cc and a 43 - 44cc chamber with a squish band like a 215
You know, just because someone mentions an idea doesn't mean everyone is going to go out and try it right away. Building an engine takes time, money, and a lot of thought. Hardly anyone has the budget to build a new engine every few weeks and that is really what it takes to go as far outside conventional as Nick seems to want. Changing too many things at once is generally seen as a recipe for disaster, and for most of us, having to tear down a freshly built engine and start over with different parts counts as a disaster. It sure would for me. I've spent nearly 5 years on the current engine counting everything else that had to be done to the car to do the upgrade and the last thing I want is to drive it for a couple weeks and pull the engine back down. I mean, I'm willing to take some chances you know. But I'm only willing to go so far, and I have to be the one to set the boundaries. I don't think I should have to tolerate anybody trying to tell me that I didn't go far enough either. So here's what I was willing to do: -Larger engine, up from 215 to 340(350ci). Physically larger, wider, taller, 82 lbs heavier. This required a complete redesign and reconstruction of the front of the car to accommodate the size, weight, and cooling requirements. Also a stronger transmission, which ended up requiring a custom transmission adapter, crossmember, shifter, driveshaft, and electronic controller. It also required a stronger differential which ended up meaning a custom independent rear suspension with inboard disc brakes and larger wheels and tires. -The larger displacement required a larger blower. Which meant a completely new intake manifold and intercooler core, plus new fuel rails, throttle linkages, a completely new air inlet/throttle body/filter assembly, and all plumbing etc, plus a bigger hole in the hood. -Internally, forged pistons with .042" squish and 7" long forged rods. The rod/pin/piston/ring package is about as light as you could get using blower pistons. Also custom cam, o-rings, custom copper head gaskets and other goodies. And the rest of the relevant details are in the 340 thread in the event Nick or anyone else cares enough to look, I'm not retyping it just because someone is too lazy to look it up. I feel like I've pushed the envelope about as far as I dare, and about as far as anyone else on here has in recent years as well, and to be frank, I feel a little insulted when somebody starts spouting off about how nobody on here thinks about squish or some such thing. Hey. If it's such a big deal to you, JUST DO IT! If you can't do that what makes you think we care? We are fighting our own battles, you can darned sure deal with YOUR own without dragging us into it. Just the way I feel about it. Jim
As has been said before arguing can be a great way to learn and broaden our knowledge, however, there is know need to get personal just because others don't agree with you 100%. Also just because an idea hasn't been tested "on the track" doesn't invalidate it. A large number of us will never see the track but still want a good performing engine. So lets all play nice in the SBB sandbox, argue your points but don't belittle others!
As far as trying to improve quench in the SBB it seems to me if you use a stepped piston "dome" the compression is going to get way out of the realm of a mild street build. You could wave pump gas goodbye no matter how efficient it is once a dome that makes any difference(.050" from head combustion chamber surface) as far as quench goes starts taking up space. Nick keeps looking around for people who are willing to try out some of the ideas he brings up(most of which I'm sure would be worth some performance gain)that other engine brands are using. Sadly he decided he wasn't the guy that was going to do it either. I'm afraid he's joined by the vast majority of guys who want a good running SBB. They are not looking to finesse the extra hp out of the engine. They just want it to run good and are not worried about setting the world on fire or their wallets for incremental gains. Of course the same could be said for the majority of BBB buildups. Looking at the small number of guys building up cutting edge street 455's you can see how with the SBB being way less popular there would be very few guys going all out on a SBB. Heck, I'm excited because the 455 I'm putting together this year will have some spherical dish/small ring pistons in it after long years of running the usual Speed Pros. One thing the Brand X engines have going for them is their large numbers of followers. That means there are probably more guys willing to go out on a limb and build cutting edge engines for their particular brand than we have that visit this site on a regular basis, let alone have actually had an engine built. This leads to a trickle down effect where those parts can go mainstream. I'm not saying you can't do the same stuff but it will take more effort and probably more $$$ to do it. I remember the heyday of the big GN vs. Mustang shootouts at E-Town in the 90's when all you could see was a sea of black cars. The Mustangs still out numbered them 4:1! As far as "Stock" class 350 cars go that is almost a waste of time talking about it in relation to street going cars. I'm tired hearing about it already. The 455 cars are well into the 10's but you still don't hear about many truly street going 455 cars going 10's so I wouldn't expect many 350 street cars to go 11's. And as far as costs go I'm sure competitive cars have as much in their trans as the typical Buick guy wants to spend on his whole engine. I've done 2 Buick 350 buildups, one in the 80's and one around 1992. Both started with a good running '69 as a base because of its higher compression. I know I left performance on the table, but like a lot of people I was trying to do it for a reasonable amount, so after checking the bearings I used the pistons without even taking them out of the block. Of course back then you could still get your hands on engines with less than 100K. With heads that I hogged out at home, 1 5/8" headers, dual 2.25" exhaust, KB Mk2 cam, TA intake, Q-Jet, 200R4, 2400 stall(actual flash at the track even though it was a generic rated 2800), 3.73's, MSD ignition, and the usual fine tuning but not much else it was installed in a fully loaded '81 Regal weighing in at 3700 with me in it. Nothing fancy, just the usual stuff. The car ran a best of 13.3@102 at a low altitude track. I can tell you I was very happy with the performance. Two places where I could have picked up the performace would have been an overbore with fresh pistons and rings and with a noticably higher stall even with the so called small cam. I think that is where most guys with the 350 fall short. Even though everybody likes to claim the Buick 350 is a "torque monster" they don't realize how far up the rpm range the torque peak has moved out of the range of common lower stall converters. Tire fryers on the street turn into slugs off the line when you put the stickys on. I'm sure those 2 things would have got me into the 12's a bit. Well I've stated my been there/done that qualifications. Some of the faster 350 cars previously mentioned have done whole threads on their buildups. The only car that I've never seen a behind the scenes buildup of is Troy's. Of course maybe I missed it somewhere so if somebody could direct me. Troy, care to share?
Just for an FYI, A 10:1 compression stepped piston looks like this. However, like Mike was saying about spending money for a little extra gain, a set of custom pistons and rings run $1000+ and most are not willing to spend the money. Given the present economy that is understandable. Paul
I wasnt looking for anyone to DO anything i said All i tried to ,and will try to, is to get people to start thinking of different areas,that when payed attention to,will reap benefits as a whole package when finished ray: As well as saying again,that if you go down the same road ,over and over,you will find yourslf in the same destination is all I also have said it several times,i regret selling my 350 parts,but i had a vision for this car as being bb powered,as well as in my older age i realize that i am now thinking ahead,and a nicely built ,stock appearing BB Apollo is worth more than one with a sb ,should the need ever arise to have to sell it off :TU: As well as ,no matter hat happens performance wise,a mild built BB will usually be more driveable,esp gear and converter wise,especially when you consider i have to fight racing conditions in the 7500-9000ft of d/a range in the summer If i were still back east,on the Island,i wouldnt have hesitated to go with a sb,because the engine would have been graced with getting back the 100hp it just lost due to address it now resides in :af: Things need to be massaged a little harder up here to make any kind power compareed to the guys who have it easy down by the waters egde I think people neeed to read what is written at times for face value,and not get caught up in trying to figure out if very word writetn,is somehow a personal jab at themselves Good day
I dont get why so many people take disagreements and arguments as personal insultso No: Hell, I argue with my friends all the time!!! Some are chebby guys, some are furd guys, Im the only Buick guy in the groupou: I build muscle-cars, hot-rods and have a soft-spot for British as well as German cars, and I build Toyotas... So living in Pickupville in the heart of Redneckvania, Ive grown a thick skin and a willingness to argue my points:rant: But it aint personal, and I aint mad at the person Im arguing with:TU: Unless I am, then Ill say so.
Whats a a Toyota? Arent those ,them things that go real fast at times for no reason,but wont stop at times? :Brow:
I think Nick was referring to the Camry accelerators sticking, and the ensuing lawsuits after people couldn't stop them,and had accidents:laugh:
