Really?? That's not at all what I got.. Of course I already knew what to expect.. The SBB is a great street engine with huge low reving torque and power through the range if spec'd correctly.. Aftermarket support is limited so you either need to make your speed parts, or buy them from someone that does. What do you want to know?? A good formula for a tire shreader??
i agree. i learned a lot, isnt that what its all about. nothing bad or personal was said to any member.
I dont believe anyone has hurt feelings over this topic. Also those who know will always make power ,and run harder than those who dont Its actually not as difficult as some may have you believe,just hard work,trial and error and good old common sense to what makes an engine happy The bottom line IMO is,this.................when people stop treating small block Buicks like they are some sort of special engine,and start applying basic fundamental principles,then the results will follow I have ,in multiple posts,given countless of examples,tips, on things that would help the sbb perform better,yet alone any engine,but the majority vote always rules and says, "that those things arent needed" Just because someone says they have been doing something for a long time,dosent make it right,so then they refuse to open up to new ideas,even if the outdated methods they believe in can be improved upon So people go ahead and run the same ol' cams,valvetrains,etc and get the same results Go figure And i already know the next repsonse to this post................goes something like this "its not worth putting big money into HEAVY MANIFOLD WORK,lightweight valvetrains ,Quench(i know ,i know ,sb buicks dont need quench r:sleeproller cams,etc,yet these are the same principals that make every other Brand X small block run hard!" The engine building world is at an all time high so jump aboard and get involved Good Luck
So Nick.. Not to put your whole quote up here.. And I have talked to you on the phone before.. What is your recipie for a strong running SBB?? One that is in the moderate budget?? Just looking for a street car that is bad assed..
Maybe you are not looking in the right place here. I have posted several times my combination and what I did and some of the problems I have encountered. I have owned the car since 1977 so I have done a lot to it. Started with a comp cam 268, that was all I added besides headers and dual exhaust. A 275 gear stock convertor. A 4bbl intake from the junkyard and a 650 dbl pump spread bore Holley. I had a 1 wheelie peelie that would burn for a half a block. Ran 16.10 in the quarter at about 85 mph. Added 373 gears and ran 14.90, never ran a higher stall did not want to at the time. Hell I even broke the cam in at idle, that is how good the oil was back then (1983). That is what I thought was right. Nothing ever happened and I did not wipe out the cam. Here is what not to do, no square bore carbs on a stock intake with a adapter, they do not work. Stock intake = run Q Jet Run TA intake you can run any carb you want I choose to run a 750 Holley dbl pump, comes out of the hole like a freight train. When I had the motor rebuilt (1994)I went with some suggestions from TA when I did this. I had them take my heads and had them ported with the larger valves. Bought forged pistons with valve reliefs new crank , index ground crank 73 rods, MSD dist, Roller rockers,A big ass Ta 510 cam went with a 3500 Hughes convertor stayed with the 373 gears. I ended up with 395 hp from 5900-6100 and 370 tq at 4 grand and at 5 grand. I ran 13.61@101 81 mph in the 1/8. My 60 ft times were slow and did slow me down some. Before the motor I put in a complete handling package at all 4 corners, heavy springs, big sway bars, poly bushings, adjustable shocks, 1977 Camaro spindles to change the center of gravity and put on disc brakes. The car is lowered some and you cannot bounce it up and down, this thing is tight. I have no doubt this slows my car down a lot because the suspension does not move a lot. I later pulled the TA 510 cam out because I felt it did not get me out of the hole fast enough. I could have and should have done the other thing to compliment the cam like at least 410 gear and a 4000 stall convertor. But I did not and went the easy way and put in a smaller cam. I used a Lunati cam and it has a 116 lobe separation and 230-245@50 duration and 507-502 lift, This cam was great out of the hole but I could tell up top that the thing would run out of steam I feel it is done by 5700 as the TA cam would go to 6500 fairly easily. I only ran it to 6100. Later I took out the Hughes 3500 convertor and used a convertor from the GS club. It was a 3500 also but it was a little looser. This woke every thing up coming out of the hole My 60 ft went from 1.86 to 1.72, Coming out of the hole is a big deal for the Buick skylark because it weighs so heavy. Now I can run with the big blocks coming out of the hole. With this last set up I decided to run some nitrous. The convertor had a hard time holding onto this as the nitrous was blowing it up to 5 grand out of the hole and staying there until I shifted at 5500 and it only dropped back to 4900. The next round I broke the drive shaft and then I decided to go with the 2004R. I set it up to run the nitrous so I used a 3000 stall convertor with lockup. Now on the motor with this my 60 ft did slow down to 1.85-1.90 so I did give up here but with the lower 1st gear I made this up by the 1/8 mile and still hit 80. I only make it to 98 in the quarter and I think most of this is from the very tight suspension made for taking corners at high speed. The ET is around 13.55-65 On the nitrous I went 11.81 @114. I gave you real world numbers here, not a desk top dyno or any of that bench racing guesswork, no G-Teck. Just Real times Next up I may try a solid lifter cam just do not know what one yet. So you see there are some that have tried different things with a few working and some not working.
Just like Jim I had to step in for a drink! :beer I'm building the 350 on 350 teardown and build. I have been listening to Sean and Gary Hersche about what they do to make them run good. If you noticed in a couple of threads of low 11's in a 350 where Chris Stevenson is running low 11's in a 74 Appollo with "stock intake and heads" considering what NHRA allows you to do with the engine for stock class. He is running a Qjet not sure if he is allowed to run an 800 since the carb number would have to be for a 74. I run a 455 with just a little performance parts, not heads, they are stock 70 heads with big valves an slightly ported by me and they were the first heads I ported and it runs high 10's. It has a 10.50 Dominator which made it go the fastest so far, SP1 intake with 2 inches of spacer. The point is just do the right things and it will go fast. Let's start with Chris and his 350. It's a 74 so the NHRA piston would have to be the lower compression piston but a forged one that they approve. The rods, Hersche rods that are now accepted cost 1300 but are needed to spin it 7500 RPMS to flow more air/fuel mixture through the engine. I don't know if he stroked the crank the allowible .015 or not. I didn't see any limitation on deck height so you could go negative to get more compression. The heads could be milled to the correct cc listed for that cylinder head. Now they accept roller rockers, $800. He now uses a stall like mine 5000 RPMs and a 4.10 rear end or higher so he's 6500 RPM's or more across the traps. The cam has lots of duration but stock lift that they accept which ain't much. So that works pretty good running low 11's. Some people would drive that combo on the street but plan on running Cam 2 fuel and going slower cruising cause your RPM's would be 3000 or higher, because of stall, on normal cruise. So the more you back down in some things and go up in some things that stock NHRA classes don't allow you might have a fast 350 and still streetable. I will build mine with his specs and more since I'm not running stock class so 10's from a 3400 LB car with a 350 should be no problem. The cam will be bigger, the intake will be open or custom or a Buick icon said the Chrysler intake will work with a little bit of machining! I might port my heads but the icon wants me to send them to someone he knows but I don't think that I can afford that so there comes the money problem again. o No: I got more to say but I have to take a break!
Sean's statements about carburetor CFM is correct. I have proven it more than once. The very first Buick 455 I built with just Stage 1 heads, I put a 1050 Dominator on it. All my Chevy expert friends were laughing and telling me it was too big and would not run. Guest what, it did run. Tried several smaller carbs and always slowed it up. Next when I built my Super Stock car with 2 x 4s I tried several sets of carbs. 600s, 750s and 800s. The car ran the best with the 750s and this was with iron ported heads. After getting the car dialed in and running it for several years I switched to ported Stage 2 TA SE heads. I tried the 750s and 800s and it did not perform as I wanted, switched to the 600s and picked it up right away. I have tuned and tried switching back to the 750s and 800s several times thinking I could go faster. Has never happened, good flowing heads didn't need as large of carburetor. As for a 350, when I got my 350 Regal running the only good carb I had was a Quick Fuel 950 cfm. Put it on the 350 and it ran well. Later switched to a 750 Quick Fuel and no big difference, may have helped driviablity right off the line but I'm dealing with convertor issues and I think once that is overcome I can go back to a larger carb. JIm N.
I think what the NHRA STOCKL ELIMINATOR guys are doing with cars is short of amazing at times But those builds arent anywhere near the relm of what the average guy will have in their street car Im pretty sure you can push those cars up hill with one hand the roll so easily the transmission are lightened,rollerized internally How many converters have they tried to get the correct,most efficient one? How much oil is that pan to run that et in the last round? How much of that oil ever touches the rotator assy? killer fuel systems Light weight wheels,with a very efficient chassis/suspension package=no wasted motion Those heads,and block have much better machining than most,lighter ring packs,better valve jobs etc what are the stem diameters in those things,along with retainer/lock package weight? oh and they spin them to the moon, to get any kind of et,which is why most if not all of them mph well short of what they average in et! lotsa gear and converter and wing it out the back door=all in the 1st 330 or so like any fast n/a car Now back to reality,the average guy can use some of the same tricks such as light weight ,low friction thinner rings,proper quench,correctly sized headers(not too big,remember that thing called shift recovery),correctly ported heads for the application,light weight valve train parts,dont be afarid to put some lift in the engine,and some time spent porting a manifold,can and will yield impressive results for the average street car oh and last but most importantly,lots of time TUNING the car after the engine is in and running way too many people build a engine,and when it doesnt perform to expectations,they tear into it,when they have several may tenths left in the combo with ,converter,exh,trans,gear,and suspension How many sets of headers do you think a serious guy will try along with converters,etc These are the reasons why................................... Good day
Nicky, I think you just like to fuss. Don't be shy, tell us just exactly how you feel. So far I don't think you've ever really explained just exactly what it is you want and then turn around and bitch at us because we didn't answer your question. It sounds like you already have all the answers you are looking for and you're mad that we have different viewpoints. Sorry but there's nothing to be done about it, we aren't you. I'm sure I can't help you. I'm not a drag racer. I've only run Buick small blocks for the past 25 years or so on the street. My latest build is only described in intimate detail in my 340 thread, and it isn't N/A. I guess nothing in there is going to be helpful to you because it has a blower on top. I have not run an N/A Buick engine (other than a weak V6 for the wife) at any time for about 15 years. But I will say this, the SBB does have some characteristics that are different from some of the other more popular engines. If you don't want that to be the case I feel for you but facts is facts. If you don't want to take that into account you will never reach the engine's full potential, but it's still a pretty good motor. If you don't know what those characteristics are by now you just haven't been doing your homework and we can't do it for you. So I say, go ahead and build it like a SBC or SBF if that is what you really want to do. And after it has disappointed you with the results, come on back here and we'll be more than happy to help you make it better. Or you can trade it for a chevy. I probably should not post this, likely as not just tossing fuel on the fire. But I always was just a bit of a pyro... Jim
A. Im a grown man and may name isnt Nicky B.-im not sure who peed in your wheaties, but where o where did i say i was bitching about the sbb? All i said,am saying ,and will continue to say ,is if you put the same effort into these things you will get the same effort out of them As for the buick being so different and needing different things to work,thats a crock of poo and again,garbage in -garbage out i dont ever remember saying anything about wanting or building brand x,or a ford or chevy being any better as well i merely stated that if you can make power with one ,then you can make power with the other And once again,the powers that be around here ,are so stuck in their ways ,that they cant see the forest from the tress so when someone questions something,they get all butt hurt or defensive Bottom line is 90 percent of the stuff done around here is outdated ancient tech ,and the results speak for themselves like i said,my stuff ALWAYS runs hard for what it is ,so i dont need anyone to pat my back or blow smoke up my butt telling me things i know are incorrect C-As for me complaining,or wanting something,i have asked 1 time,read 1 time on here what a cetain combo might be capable of when i 1st ever came on here i was testing the waters so to speak Except for some specialized question ,like castinf numbers,years of compatibilty,etc i have never asked anyone here HOW DO I GO ABOUT MAKING MY CAR FASTER You should read the words,and process them,then make a comment When someone gets on here and asks a question ,i give my opinion,and becasue its not the same old regurgitated,1980 blah -f-in- blah kenne bell recipe,lol,etc, of an answer it gets dismissed or even better yet, i readcomments like"i dnt race,drag race,or run n/a but my supercharged car and i ahve all the answers? Huh .................? All i am and ever was is trying to open people eyes to the options out there and for those same folks to quit listening to those who rec the same old OUTDATED INFO TIME AND TIME AGAIN So if that makes me a whiner or a bitcher ,then so be it id rather be disliked and honest,than be P.C. ,AND BLOW SMOkE UP PEOPLES AS**S TELLING THME WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR WHEN I KNOW ITS INCORRECT good day ---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 AM ---------- I posted this on page 1 And yet,still noone has responded i wonder why?
I usually don't say anything but laugh at all the stuff going on in these threads as to how the real questions asked get rolled off on tangents in every direction. I will have to stand with you on this Nick. What you put into something is what you get out of it! Attention to the details when setting up a engine is what will make or break a good setup.
I think your just plain wrong about how hard it is to make an 11sec SBB. Its not as easy as it is with some other brands for a pile of reasons. For a N/A engine to be that fast in the 1/4 you need one of two things from an engine...revs or cubes. The SBBs have neither. With enough work you can make one rev OK, but with a 3.8 bore even the best port-job is limited by the small valve size. It just is. And when it comes to cubes, SBC-SBF-SBD all have stroker kits. We dont. Hell, we dont even have a S/P intake unless we make it. If I wanted an engine that ran like a SBC, I would build one...Oh wait I have, a bunch of them, I have 3 or 4 right now.:laugh: The SBB dos what it dos better than a SBC, and visa-versa. I build to an engines strong points. If an engine wants to make hi-rpm power, I build it that way. If an engine wants to pull stumps, thats what I try to enhance. Do you watch the SuperBowl and think ''boy with enough work those guys would make an OK baseball team'':laugh: I love the SBB, but lying to myself isnt going to shave any tenths:bla: P.S. In Jims defence, even though I dont really like him much, he is one of the out of the box thinkers of the SBB crowd. You should look into some of the crazy crap hes done to his SBB powered MG:shock: He just likes to pick fights for no reason:spank:
Ive got thick skin so its all good If someone wants to argue for the ske or it,im always up for a good debate Mom said i shouild a been a lawyer She was probably right lol Oh and i reiterate Its been 5 pages of love fest now, and still no answer Originally Posted by NickEv Just look at Undderdog350 on here Pure stock 350 running 13.70s with a unported head ,iron intake,small cam,342 gears etc at 3660pds Should be cake to get into the 12s ,no!, yet you just dont see it often Why is this poss,to go fast with stock parts, but even low 12s/ hi elevens are so out of reach when anything goes? im still waiting gents?
Ok good job with the thread. We all said what we know so let's move on! But remember this thread for small block knowledge. Good job guys!:beer
Why does everyone assume that you need cubic inches or high Rpm to go quick in the quarter? Because that is then the excuse they get to use when their car runs like garbage. YOUR CAR SETUP HAS TO MAXIMIZE THE WAY YOUR ENGINE RUNS OR IT WILL ALWAYS FALL SHORT OF ITS POTENTIAL! If your car doesn't turn a lot of rpm you can still use low gears to get your cars mass moving quickly and then use a trans with more gears so that it will pull all the way to the finish line, and still be usable on the street. Alot of people who don't drive Buicks have figured that out, just search the web. To anyone who as actually posted numbers for their engine build and car setups I applaud you. Way too many people on this website say you can't do much with the sbb and only have their crappy, no effort, no thought, engine build that falls on its face at 4000rpm and still makes less torque than stock to show. I think the info on head porting on this thread is a great way to show what can be done to make good power, but as some have stated it takes effort and thought in selecting the right parts and apparently most on here aren't willing to do that.
Nick, just has some personal issues that for some reason make him feel compelled to attack me and other people on here.... Here are the facts: 1. Nick has a lot of great info and ideas 2. Nick feels the need to basically bash the "people in the know" because he knows more than anyone else about engines and what ti takes to run fast 3. Nick has called me out and said that my information is poor and out of date, and I should stop giving the same advice that I have been giving 4. Nick picks fights and loves to banter back and forth about crap We are all entitled to our opinions and Nick and I agree to disagree about a lot of things, which is fine.
Originally Posted by NickEv Just look at Undderdog350 on here Pure stock 350 running 13.70s with a unported head ,iron intake,small cam,342 gears etc at 3660pds Should be cake to get into the 12s ,no!, yet you just dont see it often Why is this poss,to go fast with stock parts, but even low 12s/ hi elevens are so out of reach when anything goes? im still waiting gents?[/QUOTE] I got ya Nick, its not that hard to get into the 12's. Doesn't take that much more money than a 13 sec. build. But one thing is for sure much easier for those at lower elevation. Hometown tracks DA usually around 8000+. My car ran a 12.04 @ Topeka Kansas and after that I put in a new converter that picked almost a full two tenths at my home track, so that tells me with the same conditions it would run around a 11.90. The money put into mine was more towards longevity vs go fast. Stock Eliminator should not be used as a comparison to what the rest of the race world is doing let alone something for the street. If that has to be explained you wouldn't understand anyway, go to your local strip and become friends with the Stocker crowd,they are wizards. Troy
Name ONE PLACE IN THIS THREAD WHER I HAVE ATTACKED YOU OR EVEN MENTIONED YOUR NAME SEAN? And i kind of called you out one time,and since then i havent breathed your name /let alone spoken to you? I also havent tried to pick a fight with anyone,yet the personal attacks seem to come towards me by name This is why i have proved my point over and over again,that the "experts" in here are the 1st to attack everyone else UNDERDOG 350 RUNS MID 13S WITH A BONE STOCK ENGINE IN A NEAR 3700 PD CAR Why is it more people arent goind much faster when they arent limited by any rules and any thing goes in terms of engine work? Again,im waiting Why is everyone dancing around theq uestion now ? ---------- Post added at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:48 PM ---------- be careful Troy Someone feelings might get hurt when reality strikes ---------- Post added at 02:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ---------- I got ya Nick, its not that hard to get into the 12's. Doesn't take that much more money than a 13 sec. build. But one thing is for sure much easier for those at lower elevation. Hometown tracks DA usually around 8000+. My car ran a 12.04 @ Topeka Kansas and after that I put in a new converter that picked almost a full two tenths at my home track, so that tells me with the same conditions it would run around a 11.90. The money put into mine was more towards longevity vs go fast. Stock Eliminator should not be used as a comparison to what the rest of the race world is doing let alone something for the street. If that has to be explained you wouldn't understand anyway, go to your local strip and become friends with the Stocker crowd,they are wizards. Troy[/QUOTE] Someone who gets it finally
So DO it Nicky, just DO it. We're all such posers, why don't you show us how it's done? The only results that matter are the ones you say matter, then show us those results. C'mon, what's holding you up? I know it isn't us, we're all just incompetents. Let's see the proof from all your big talk, ya big windbag! Jim
I posted this on page 1 And yet,still noone has responded i wonder why?[/QUOTE] I won't say that it should be cake, but that is my goal, I will get there, and I may not use any of the "normally recommended" parts. Others have done it with new stuff from Lunati and others. My plan involves 3.73 gears and a 200 4R to still be able to go to all the cruise ins I want. I'll try to update my sig as I make progress. Peace, Out.
