IMO it really comes down to lack of aftermarket support. It is not EASY to build a quick sbb like it is for Chevy, Ford and Mopar engines. The basic design of an engine does not make it completely unsuited to making power. The bore/stroke combo of the engine is only one piece of the total equation for power. The olds 403 has one of the most oversquare bore/stroke combos ever so why doesn't it scream to 8,000 rpm stock? Heads, cam, flow the list goes on but with a good build I have been STUNNED by how well they can be made to run. With the rpm they can spin it usually involves really low gears, a high stall torque converter and the chassis setup to take advantage of it. RPM is only one factor for quick E.T. and most of the improvement to a cars E.T. is in the first 1/8th mile not the second. That being said a car with good torque is VERY capable of low E.T. production you just have to be able to understand how to make your car work inside the parameters of what you have. I had a Chevy truck that ran the first 1/8th well but was out of breath by 900 feet. When the truck was given new heads, cam, intake and ignition to "hop it up" the E.T. was the same because it ran the first half slower, loss of torque, but the back half faster. The real key is to make sure your car is setup to compliment the engine. Take a walk through the stock pits at any NHRA or IHRA event and talk to any of them and you will find it took a lot of time and work to get their cars running like they do, even some motors that are "easy" to make power with. The advantage of not being in class racing is you can build your engine to do whatever you want. In todays world everyone just wants quick and easy solutions that require no effort or thinking on their part so the easy route is almost always take i.e. BBB or swapping in chevys. I plan to keep my SBB and it may not be quick for a long time but it will be eventually. I also think there are plenty of people on this site that would rather complain and cry about what they don't have than try to work with what is available, makes 'em feel better when their junk runs like crap. I'm also tired of people complaining about what they do have i.e. the T/A intake. Everyone says it's not any better than stock so don't buy it, but yet you want them to develop new parts for the 350, why would they if most people will just complain about it anyway? I can see it already "the price is too high" " they don't flow enough", blah blah blah. Get off your butt and go out to the garage and work at it or shut you trap. I think most don't want to spend the time to make their car run, they just complain about it. Everyone that has EVER posted that they want a quick SBB should be salivating for Seans book and therefore it should sell over a thousand copies, but it won't because most don't care enough to try. Sean I'm sending you a PM with my info so you can let me know what I need to do to get the first copy in print.
I just think that drag-racing isnt the end-all-be-all of performance If someone likes to do it fine, but its a piss poor measuring stick thats slanted toward a certain type of engine. Are the best drag engines the best over-all engines? Good lord no. Ive run race prepped SBCs on the street... You know what? They suck. Twitchy, shakey, tempermental, and have an all-or-nothing power band:rant: Its like saying a thoroughbred is better than a clydesdaleuzzled: When I say the SBB is a better street engine I mean it as a complement:TU: I like to drive my cars, but I do drag race. Right now Im building a '49 ford F-1 ratrod that is going to weigh about 2500lb. Im running a 489-stroker-BBC fully balanced, forged everything, aluminum heads, Comp roller cam/rockers/chain, and a 2x4 tunnel ram. Looking to get about 600-650HP, and yes its going to be on the track and the street:3gears: Im also building an '82 Regal thats getting a '70 Buick 350 with a small Poston cam, T/A intake, hopefully headers, shift kitted 200r4, and a 342 posi, that will have A/C and cruise control:3gears: Guess which one I'll put the most miles on:idea2:
"Then boost comes in and gives strong power through the mid and upper speed range and extends the RPM capacity of the motor by more complete cylinder filling, and finally, fuel economy is decent. This sounds like a great street engine," Exactly why Buick super charged the 3.8!
after reading all the replies, i must be really doing something wrong with my 350. first off, i'm not a good tuner. i don't look for et or mph. i just build the 350 for r&d just to show what can be done and last. 73 century with junkyard trans is not a good start for drag racing, but the car would turn 103mph in the quarter wether it did 13.5 or 15.5. no torque, no top end, no high rpm ????......i guess i really am a dummy when it comes to 350 durability and above normal abuse. yeah, water in the oil, 300 degrees temp, 7500rpm and more, etc, etc and never broke or blown up. again i must be a dummy when it comes to building 350's. believe what you read and here from everybody else, mine story is factual information that is available to anybody. :af:
Huh ????????????? Say this all again but in English please Between the sarcasm and the running on,i dont see any technical merit or info in this post
everybody seems to think that it's rocket science to build a 350. It's not, never has been. there is just to much bogus information out there. people need to read outside the box. i really don't need or have to post here, just trying to help. but probably better off i stop. have a nice day..........
[HR][/HR] We appreciate your input Johnny, please keep posting. I know have a hard time respecting me because I have not ran fast at the track yet with my 350s but I am just as eager to get this done. We need your input, you are a pioneer of doing this different with the SBB and I respect that BIG TIME! I know your wording might not have been what most people are used to however we need to hear your opinion and advice on these things! Please, instead of saying things like you must be crazy to do what you do and have your engine live... Instead just give us some tips on things we can do to run 7500 RPM reliably and things like that. When I advise people to build the SBB to make power and tq between 3000 and 5600 RPM that is because without the good head porting, single plane intake manifold like you and I have, the large tube headers, and the right camshaft the engine will never make power over 6000 RPM. Your combo has all the things needed to rev, most people are most interested in 2500-5600 RPM power. One of my favorite quotes from you is one day on the phone: Me: "What was your oil pressure at 7500 RPM?" You: "I am not sure, I checked to make sure I have oil pressure then I un hooked gauge and ran the car all year" If there is nothing else we take from Johnny it is the fact that not everything has to be perfect with the 350, it is a reliable engine even without the best tuning or care. You beat the snot out of them and they are reliable for you, I love hearing about your testing abuse. Seeing how succesful the Turbo Regals and GNs have been it seems natural to turbocharge or supercharge the SBB! Jay Davenport's (Jay 3000 on V8 Buick) engine is pictured in the article is making about 550 HP at the crank on low boost with a mild 350 that makes about 320 HP before the turbos with a small street cam. In another Buick 350 project Jefferson Bryant used a low comp junkyard engine that was all worn out and almost doubled his HP with just 7 PSI of boost with a peak HP at about 4800 RPM due to running out of fuel on the top end. Like Jim says, it is the small bore and lack of cylinder filling that make the SBB LOVE boost and or nitrous. A 100 HP shot of nitrous makes the 350 a MONSTER, and even stock it handles the power. Here is an article I wrote and published about turbocharging!
Again i think its great that people can make good power wit hsome sort of a power adder on a Buick 350 But that isnt what this thread was for Also vague reponses about 7500 rpm engines that run 13s arent useful for the average guy on here looking to make reliable ,affordable power Noone's opinions were, or are being dismissed ,but it would be more productive to say "this is how i did it,or this could be another way to make power,and ill show you how",than to say look at what i did but im not telling how i did it! The bottom line is there are maybe a handful of true 11sec all motor buick 350's running around and im not talking about the NHRA stock eliminaotr combinations that are waaaaayy more triced out than anyone is going to build for the average car Id be willing to bet,that even if you could get someine to tell you the TRUTH about what they are currently running in one of thse motors,it wouldnt be cost effective for the average guy to build along with the non streetable converter and gear it would take to get it to ET well ,along with the Big money trans ans chassis work it needs to efficiently use the power it makes I get this stuff more than most so thats why im still waiting for an answer to my original question besides noone wants to build a fast onep
I only made it to 13.31 and I had a true 400 dyno horse. But my car has a very tight suspension that I have set up for cornering. I am sure this takes a lot from the motor. gsjohnny1 is a guy that really does think outside the box. I really like to hear what he has to say, and maybe we can learn from him. There was a person here somewhere that said he was running in the 11's with a 350 and when I tried to pry info out of him he just told me it was the combination and tuning. I think the car with the 350 can get into the 11's but it is probably going to take what it does for any other motor to get there. I do not know why nobody has done it yet. The engine is probably going to have to be 11.1 comp. 411 gear 3000stall slighty loose but tight at the same time. But I would like to see something on the line of a very hot street engine that stays under 11 on the comp or get the engine to run on premium only or with 5 gal of racegas. The best part about the 350 Buick is I think you could run this every weekend in the bracket class and kick some real butt. If I was able to go every weekend I think I could do it. When I went to the Buick nats at Norwalk about 3 years ago I made it to 3rd place in my class and I had not been to the track in months but I know the car and what it is going to do. Spring is coming is it going to be another dead year or am I going to see some fresh timeslips. Come on lets go!
reason why this is my last post..hopefully. i get very irritated when i read some of the nonsense posted about the 350's. i've been "playing" with buicks since i was 16. nhra g/s in the early 70's, v6, 340 and now the 350. not a rookie at it, but still can't fix a lawnmower. my preference right now is to make the 350 a very viable engine. it is just an ongoing r&d project for me. i do it on a budget and i do it outside the box and all the info is available to anybody. the projects/blog are posted on the bpg site. now that being said, i get very irritated when people say you can't do this or that with a 350. been there, done that and beyond. i don't tune very well and don't care anymore. the car may seem slow at 13.5 or 15.8. but when i say the mph is 103 regardless of et, you have to realize that the top end is pulling like a freight train. the bad et is due to junkyard trannys. some work ok, some don't and i don't care. its the engine i'm concerned about. it's about building the block the right way the first time so you don't have to worry about it later. same with the heads. porting and the bigger valves. that done you can play with cams, carbs, trans, gears, weight, etc. the only downside to all of the primary work is the intake. i personally don't like turbo's or front mounted s/c's. too much junk, too many items needed to work. i like the simple stuff that most people would or should do. the only issue is the elusive single plane intake. how would you like to feel it pulling to 7500rpm quickly? shift dropoffs are less than 500rpm's. that alone with the correct engine build will make more than enough power needed for most of the crowd. well, been there, done that. i proved it numerous times. what i see is most people can't read or just don't understand it. forgot, how many realize the parasitic h/p loss due to the 350 valve train? anybody??? think about it and tell your friends. coming from and r&d machinist envoirnment, i get bored very easily. i moved away from the s/p intake. i bought a front engine dragster which requires a new perspective. A REAL SUPERCHARGER. lol. i really know nothing about them, but i read and wing it from there. the 350 has had a b&m s/c on it. nothing like cruising at 15 mph and lay into the peddle and go up in smoke. that's power. up next is a 4-71 blower. couldn't use a 6-71 due to 9.5 comp. the 4-71 i can go to 6lbs of boost and not cause any heavy problems. this is the start to a twin 350 dragster. more thinking and education required. all doable. i could go on and on, but will stop here. you can believe what you want to believe, do what you want to do. i tried to teach,nobody listened. i don't care anymore. hopefully not to sign in again!
GSJohnny, I don't think anyone here is upset with you or your point of view, we maybe just didn't quite understand the point you were trying to make is all. Please don't abandon V8 Buick just because a few people didn't understand or agree with you. Your input is interesting and informative. Now let's get this thread back on track, although I see the OP hasn't posted since his first post.
I stand by my statements. And johnny has only confirmed them. Turning 7500rpms and running 15.8... It sounds like an '85 honda civic.ou: Getting pissed because no one wants to listen? With a desciption like ''water in the oil, 300 degrees temp, 7500rpm'' and it only gos 13.5-15.8:shock: Well...Sign me up But hes made it clear that he dosnt care... Well that makes two of us.
I agree 100% I still have yet to read anything of technical merit,along with reasons why/how the average guy could duplicate to reach similar goals or performances 103 mph in the 1/4 in a 3500pd or spo car is only around 350 or so at the crank Thats 1hp per cubic inch= o No: If youre going to brag about things, at least make it impressive :TU:
most buick 66-72 skylarks are closer to 3800pd with driver. your 350hp number happens to be about right for a 3800pd car at 103 mph. so to take that 3800pd car from a stock 85 mph in the 1/4 to 103 mph you would need about a 150 hp. can it be done? sure. can it be very street friendly and driveable? sure. with no turbos or super charger or nos? sure. with the right combo and :dollar:.
