I totally agree, nothing against those who do use other cams as it is definitely nice to see the other side of the coin and really find out what works but I feel TA is the only way to go for my personal interests.
I see your point on changing 40 y/o valve springs. It's just that this motor was rebuilt just over 4k miles ago. I know that it was redone to stock specs Nd would assume wearable items like valve springs would be replaced with new ones. I have never rebuilt an engine, and you know what they say about assumptions. Guess I'll kick in for springs too. I am interested in sticking with the TA components and will shop for the best deal. Thanks for all of your opinions and advice. Supremeefi, I will pm u in the next week or so about putting together a kit for me when I have the time for ordering go faster goodies.
I dont pretend to understand the finer points of single vs. dual pattern cams, so I googled it. I found this from Isky cams. It may help explain when one is more useful than the other, as opposed to being an "old design" vs. a newer one. Some may look at "older" as "proven over time". Anyway, read and digest: :Smarty: This is Isky's view: Tech Tip - 2003 Longer Exhaust Duration (AKA dual pattern) : Is this really necessary? Most stock camshafts from American production V8, V6 and 4 cylinder engines manufactured today are ground with the longer exhaust lobe duration. Or, another way of looking at this is that they are ground with shorter intake durations! The former embraces the viewpoint that either the Exhaust Ports or Exhaust Pipe system is somewhat restrictive, and is in need of an assist. The latter suggests that the intake system is rather efficient and cam timing can be trimmed back a bit with out much sacrifice in power, in order to maximize throttle response and cruising efficiency. Take your pick here. There is no absolutely correct viewpoint - because both are probably true! In a stock engine running at conservative RPM levels, for the sake of overall efficiency, fuel economy and a quiet smooth running engine, this staggering of intake and exhaust duration is quite common and appropriate. However, High Performance is another thing entirely. Change one factor, let's say in this case, the exhaust system (installing headers and larger pipes) and you have just negated in most cases, the need for that longer exhaust lobe. Now couple this change with a different intake system and camshaft and you have really scrambled the equation. But, wait just a moment. Why is it that so many people (racers & cam grinders alike) insist on running a cam with longer exhaust duration regardless of what equipment is employed? The answer is "habit". Most of them have been somewhat successful in doing it their way and will probably never change unless virtually forced by circumstances to do so. Before we go any further however let's review what it actually is we are trying to do with an engine when we attempt to make more power. Our best result comes when we are cognizant of the fact that an engine is basically an air pump. We pump it in and out (although in a different form) and we have problems when one side or the other is restricted. Balance or the equilibrium or flow should be our objective, unless of course we are not trying to make more horsepower! Example #1 (Oval track racing) Here, I have often observed that the most experienced drivers are those who are most likely to run a single pattern (equal on intake and exhaust duration) cam. Why? Because such cams always, I repeat always make more torque! These veterans have a more educated foot and greater experience in feathering the throttle in the corners. They can therefore, utilize the benefit of added torque, in the lower to mid RPM range, to their advantage. Their counterparts, the younger drivers on the circuit, generally are not as experienced and may at times actually get "crossed up" in the corners especially with a lighter car or when they are learning the ropes. In their case, a longer exhaust duration is often the more appropriate choice. It will often help them to drive better, more "flat footed" if you will, without consequence. But please for the sake of accuracy, let us be truthful. The benefit comes from an actual bleeding off of low to mid range torque, which is always what happens when Exh. Duration is lengthened, not from any improvement. The improvement, (if any) would come because of an improvement in scavenging at the extreme upper end of the power curve and would usually be marginal at best. Yet the so-called "extra power" potential of a longer Exh. Duration cam is most often why they are touted - power most people are backing away from at the end of the strait away! Example #2 (Drag Racing) At the drag strip it's a little different and I feel more honest. Here, racers have long enjoyed longer exhaust and longer durations across the board (If I may add specifically for the purpose of "killing" low-end torque) to keep the tires from too easily breaking lose. This has been successful and sometimes actually results in a slight increase in top end power - something you can actually use in drag racing since it is a full throttle endeavor through the lights. Keep in mind here though, it's quite possible that a longer duration cam overall would have done just as well or better. In other words if you needed that longer exhaust for top end, perhaps the intake could have benefited from such a lengthening as well. One of my favorite expressions is how "The Drag Racing mentality has infiltrated the ranks of Oval Track". Many have crossed over and made the switch in the past 10-15 years and some have brought their preconceived notions about how to cam an engine with them. A few may actually read these concepts and if they do so will at least come away with a better understanding of what they are doing. On the other hand they also could find that this information might actually help their cars to run just a bit faster! Note: Readers may find Camfather Ed Iskenderian's Top Tuners Tip #33 "Can an Exhaust System Over-Scavenge the Combustion Chambers" to be a relevant precursor.
This is exactly why I offer custom grinds for the same price as a lot of the off the shelf stuff. Everybodys combo is different.
Based on that article it make me believe I do not need a dual pattern cam since my exhaust flows way more than I could ever flow on the intake side through a stock setup..... unless I do some porting. So that makes me wonder, if you run headers and dual 2.5" exhaust and you do mild head porting does that mean a dual pattern cam is still appropriate since equal work was done to both sides of the system or would a single pattern cam be warranted?
Although your exhaust system flows well, your head exhaust flow is a little low... This is why the split pattern cams work well.. The TA212 cam works perfectly with the stock engine, trans, and rear end of these cars... Stock Flow, stock valve... intake .050 - 27 .100 - 55 .200 - 112 .300 - 165 .400 - 199 .500 - 196 .600 - 199 exhaust .050 - 22 .100 - 44 .200 - 87 .300 - 119 .400 - 137 .500 - 146 .600 - 149 Add some head porting, a 2800 stall converter, and a 3.42 gear then the TA 290 cam is a better option... Here are some ported flow numbers, more can be had with a little more $ too. Ported, 1.92/1.55 vlaves Intake .050 - 32 .100 - 60 .200 - 116 .300 - 172 .400 - 215 .500 - 247 .600 - 262 exhaust .050 - 27 .100 - 53 .200 - 102 .300 - 145 .400 - 175 .500 - 177 .600 - 182
I think it depends on what you plan to do with your car. 1-5/8 primaries tells me that you dont go to the track that much. You use your car on the street. (if not, you may want to switch to 1-3/4 or larger primary headers, which are more appropriate for high RPM/high trap speed in the 1/4 mile). That being said, based on the article, which states single pattern is better for torque (stoplight to stoplight), seems to me that the "old" single pattern (Comp cams 268) might be a better choice. Just my opinion, but unless you care about the stopwatch, it probably doesnt really matter when all is said and done. The difference is likely largely undetectable in seat-of-the-pants feel.
Both points are very valid. In response to Sean that makes alot of sense, its how the heads flow, not the carb or the exhaust that make the difference in cam selection for the most part. Everything else falls into place after that like gears, converter stall and other supporting modifications that affect powerband. I see in the head flow numbers that a dual pattern cam would be beneficial in order to even out flow distribution and make more power in a uniform way (please correct me if I am wrong) I am not looking to build an all out racecar but I would like to make the most power I can through each step of the build process so long as it doesn't heavily sacrifice streetability
You are right on with your comments... From the testing I have done the TA 212 is a great cam, although some other cams may give a better top end HP the 212 has a good low end, great mid range and good top end rpm. Even with ported heads the problem with the large cams is that they give up low rpm torque and the car ends up not being much faster in most cases. The exception to the rule is when you have enough air intake, precise fuel metering, good head flow, high compression, higher stall converter, higher than stock gearing, etc. Only then will the larger cam run much faster. In my mind what the Buick 350 needs even more than alum heads is this: A roller cam that can give a nice street profile AND the performance of a huge flat tappet cam. I have a TA roller cam that is going into a Buick 350 race car that is NA and should be in the 11s. As an R&D project it will be interesting to see how it works out. I think that this custom roller grond will really make some great power! Even with stock non ported heads in the Buick 350 makes a projected 370 HP on the simulator programs... http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=218935&highlight=roller+cam
wow!! talk about a wealth of knowledge on this site. i've learned a ton just being a fly on the wall. i do have a question though. in reference to the cam install, is there anything wrong with installing these parts seperately. for instance, the cam and lifters at one time and a stall converter later? would there be any damage caused by not having the supporting torque converter with the performance cam. i can do one or the other now and am not sure if i should just wait to do it all together. you know how that mod bug does ya! lol
You can do a cam before a converter but what you have to realize is it will impact drivability depending on the powerband of the cam. Say you have a cam that makes power from 2000-6000 rpm and you have a converter that stalls at 1200rpm. Everytime you are below 2000rpm you are operating in an inefficient range. Fuel economy, performance and a smooth ride will all be thrown to the wind because you are outside where the cam is designed to operate because the converter is fully engaged before the cam starts evening out. This goes for gear as well, some cams require gears as well as a converter this is all to get the car into the powerband as quickly as possible to offset its inefficiency below the powerband
I know it's off topic but truth be told...you would probably be best off to do the gears first, converter then the cam as you would " feel " the progressive changes up the ladder. The cam change alone would be the band change but the converter and gears would be the seat of the pants change. A good cam change is only worth what it's compliments have to offer, with a low compression motor and alot of cam theres not gears out there to make up for the loss of low end power nor the converter to make it band quicker. But with a stout motor to make a cam compliment the cam, the cenverter and gears will make that ladder seem all that much worth it. In my opinion gears first then converter and then the ( motor ) or cam change to take it to the band you want.
good info!!! since ive chosen the 284 cam as i am not going to port the heads now, and according to ta, this cam is cool with the stock valve train, no issues forcasted with doing a cam swap now and a higher stall torque convertor when funds replenish? certainly the butt dyno should feel the gains from the cam. heck, their website advertises 25hp over stock and it makes power from 15-5500 so it seems that the stocker should be fine? what say yee?
The 284 should be acceptable with a stock converter and gear but it will not see its full potential unlike the TA212 which is perfectly happy with highway gears and stock stall speed. I am sure there are plenty of people who can chime in and give insight on how the 284 performs in a stock type setup. Think about long term goals. If you plan on doing work shortly after such as head work, gears and a converer then go with the 284 and you should be fine. If you plan on just running with a cam for a little bit then you may be happier with a 212
So I've decided that the 284 is better for me, based on your replys. The car and I have history and now that I own it I'm sure I'll be keeping it a long time. That said the Eng/Trans got rebuilt and driven for 4k miles then sat for 8 years. I've got all the bugs out now and it's time for some upgrades. Eventually I will upgrade the stall convertor. Therefore the 284 is better I think. I got the rear end out of a 72 cutlass 442 15 yrs ago when the previous owner, my bud from high school romps on it and makes out with a curb. So I don't know what the gear ratio is. Research says it could either be 3.42, 3.55, or 3.73. I just know it's positrac and from a 442 cutlass. My goals are to have a nice lopey idle and have a Lil more nuts. Currently won't spend the tires even under power-brake conditions. U guys think I'm on track here?
Ok lets find out what rear end ratio you have: Have a friend drive beside you on the highway at 65 MPH and look at your tach when you hit the same speed. Your spedo may be off so usse this method to findout your rpms at 65 MPH. Next use a calculator like this one here. Use "1" for the 3rd gear ratio, leave the other stuff blank except add your tire size, your rpms at 65, and then try a rear end ratio like 3.73. Then press calculate and you will see if the MPH is correct. Keep changing the rear end ratio in the calculator till you get 65 MPH and then you will know what gear you really have. http://www.f-body.org/gears/ I suggest you set the total timing to get 32-34 degrees of timing all in by 2300 rpms, your performance should improve. I also use a vacuum canister for advance that is limited to 10 degrees of timing and I use that off a ported vacuum source. Another thing you can do to ensure good performance is a good sual exhaust if you have not done that already.
Good info Sean and as usual I appreciate it. I will get right on this rear end issue as soon as some parts come in. Waiting on some exhaust gaskets to fix a leak. Once it's buttoned up I'll get this sorted out. I just put a tach in so now I'm on to the tuning issue. Right now, the car has longtube headers attached to glasspacks right at the 3' collector. I'm pretty sure the lack of backpressure is robbing me of some serious power. U know my future upgrades with the cam and all, recommend a full exhaust sys or adding an X or H pipe? Would the butt dyne feel something like that?
Yes, the car would likely feel better with a full exhaust as long as it is 2.5" or larger... Even a 3" dual setup is enough back pressure from what I have found. With just the headers and glasspacks you will have good full throttle performance but may lack a little throttle response at part throttle. An X pipe can help a little bit, I prefer the sound of true duals though it sounds meaner.
the TA284-88H cam and lifters will be here next week and my intent is to instal them that weekend. as of late i have finally gotten my tach situation fixed, installed the pertronix conversion kit and coil, as well as the crane adjustable vacuum advance kit with silver springs. they seem to have woken the car up a bit and i'm sure those parts will mesh nicely with the cam. when i reinstalled the distributor, i tried my damndest to put the rotor and vacuum advance in the exact location they came out. i'm not sure if i did it right though. the car started fine, but the idle was steady at 1300. i let it warm up as i thought maybe the elec choke was still on but later checked it wasn't. i took a short drive and the car seemed to move with a bit more pep, so i parked and lowerd the idle. also moved the metering rods to 2 full rotations out on both sides of the carb (up from 1.5), and readjusted the idle. there is no ping or hesitation anymore, and the car actually hit 100 mph (up from 90ish) and drove at highway speeds fine. i did check the timing and the light shows 19* at idle (up from 8). i'm sure that shouldn't be right so someone please chime in and help me out with getting this dialed in. i re-read Larry70GS's thread on powertiming but am not sure where to put my 30* index mark. so here's the questions: 1-can i damage the car by leaving the timing where it is? 2-when i replace the spark plugs, should i increase the gap? if so, to what? 3-on a totally different subject, what are your thoughts on the b&m shift kit? is it worth it? do they damage or reduce the life of the transmission?
