Aftermarket iron 455 Buick block - Interest?

Basil, I don't have a problem with confidence in AllPontiac, I have the problem with you and how you have poorly presented yourself.

Once again, you misunderstand me. There is obviously an interest growing for an IRON block.

Do we have to contact the potential providers ourselves? Because of the success of the Pontiac block, there should be no problem if they're asked to put up with some pressure from the people who need info, no?

Devon

 

Just need to see if the new suppliers can step up.

I am supremely unimpressed with this new potential one as of yet, and I write this from a professional basis. I do not want or need an iron or aluminum block.

The correspondence so far has all alarms going off. The "liason" for the company who might do this can't see past the reality of this so far and has become defensive, even though I put out the proverbial olive branch.

Devon

 

I still didn't catch your name and I Looked on the first page and I'm sorry but the only name I seen was on post #5 but you talk about getting cranks made not blocks "I discussed it with Bob Cacciotti last week. If someone wants to step forward and make it a joint effort I don't think it would be an issue. AllPontiac did a joint effort with http://www.bopengineering.com/ to get our forged cranks done" its your turn to correct me I will call TA tomorrow and ask about about my block I have on order and see about pan fit etc. Good luck with this. Doing a poll is pretty tuff, asking people to post in a poll is one thing but when it comes to order time that is another:beers2: Chris Skaling

 

:gp: :gp: :gp: :gp: :gp: :gp: :gp: :gp: :gp: :gp: :gp: :gp:

 

My name is James btw. No, I don't think I've poorly presented myself. I'm not selling you anything, I don't need your business, I can pretty much say whatever I feel like if I'm being attacked. I don't need to be PC here. Go back and re-read from page one. Apparently your reading comprehension sucks because it has been crystal clear from about 6 posts in what I'm trying to do here.

No, you don't need to contact them. This is on me for now. There is no information to give you. After a long discussion (I told them about the Bulldog issues) I got the green light to see who is interested in a block. If you want to see a list of what goes into an IA2 block check their website as you would probably be looking at similar options for a Buick block. Once this runs for a week or two I will ask the people interested to contact me (assuming we get 50 - 75 people seriously interested). I will compile a list and forward it to the appropriate people in an effort to make this happen. From that point they would be contacted by the vendor. This is my attempt at doing something good for the hobby out of a passion for everything BOP. This is also your attempt at ruining it for everyone.

 

Stop insulting me in your "olive branch" posts and it won't be an issue any longer. I tried to end this "issue" with you a while back (remember pretty please?) You took it as a sign of weakness and piled on. I'm not the guy to take sh*t of anyone, so that wasn't easy to do.

With all due respect, you are a VERY sensitive person to talk to about this subject. AllPontiac is not Bulldog, you need to let that go. Or better yet get your friends in here that would be interested in a block and stop posting.

 

Anyway, enough with this guy. Who is interested in getting an iron block?

 

Hey James, there are several people interested in an aftermarket cast iron block for the big block Buick.

James, you have to earn some thick skin. I'm not always an ass, only when called upon.

I think that any attempt to help us in the Buick world is welcome. I won't be a customer for an iron block any time soon, but if you really mean to help out with a new product, you will have a good following and great support.

I truly look forward to what you can do for us. Not joking.

Sincerely,

Devon

 

Like I said I'm just going off what I heard. It could very well be wrong. Do me a favor and ask Mike to call Bob to talk about casting blocks while you're at it. I sent Mike the number. Getting those two guys together is a step in the right direction. Thanks, James

 

Thanks, I appreciate that. I'll be pretty impressed with myself if my crazy idea to get everyone together actually works out. :beers2:

 

I've done my best to put you through the ringer, and would love to see your progress.

Devon

 

James, have you ever heard the saying "believe nothing you here and only half of what you see":laugh: I can't speak for TA but I'm sure they have alot invested in the aluminum blocks right now so I couldn't see taking on a iron block any time soon. I am just thankful that someone stepped up and made us a block. Chris

 

We spend years and a ton of money developing and perfecting our blocks. There were more people involved in the project than I feel like listing and most of them are very prominent people well known in the racing industry, and I'm pretty sure my fathers hair is a bit more gray from the project than it was when we started. We covered literally every aspect of the blocks. If some feature or ability comes to mind about incorporating into a block, we were there and thought about it years ago. If it was possible we did it, if it wasn't well then it didn't happen.

We have 3 versions of our block, a "stock" a "raised cam" and a "tall deck, raised cam" block. They are all basically the same except for a 3 core things. The "stock" block has everything our blocks have to offer, but has all of a factory 455 block's features (standard mains, cam, cam height, 10.570” deck height that can be lowered to 10.200” etc.). Anything that works on a stock block will work on this one as well, except you cant break ours and it comes with a big list of improvements over a factory block. Our "raised cam" block is exactly as it sounds, its our stock block but the cam has been raised and uses 54mm Ford cam bearings so you can run a larger stroke, and it features 3 inch mains. Lastly our "tall deck, raised cam" block is everything the "raised cam" block is, but with a taller deck to allow for even larger stokes. They are priced at $5,900, $6,900 and $7,900 respectively, though most people wont use anything more than the raised cam block it will mostly be stock blocks. $6,000 isnt bad if you look at it as an insurance policy IMO, if your big expensive factory block based engine broke.

Our first shot was to go with iron to save cost, but it ended up being more expensive in the end than aluminum, and dad liked the idea of being able to repair the block and aluminum's characteristics so it was a no brainier for him. Like I mentioned in our thread, we're still searching for ways to bring the block down in price and we have a few promising leads. But everyone has to understand, I dont think they will ever be Dart Chevy block cheap, as the market just isnt that big and there isnt a big enough of a demand for aftermarket blocks to bring the price down that low. I may be wrong, but its all in the numbers, the more you buy the cheaper it is.

As for the thread turning a bit negative, James has all the right to ask a question. He just needs to understand (and probably does now :grin that the Buick community has a sore spot regarding this topic. The idea of someone else making another block doesn't set particularly well with me after we personally put a lot of hard work and invested a lot of time and R&D into our block to provide the Buick community with another quality piece, like we always do. This is only because it takes away from any future projects we may have had planned that I would really like to see accomplished and get excited thinking about. My dad didn't require deposits when he set out to produce our block, his dream, we funded it entirely on our own, and in the end we delivered our promise. Usually I agree that competition is a great thing, computers are a side hobby of mine and I love the competition between Intel and AMD or Nvidia and ATI/AMD because it drives them to further improve their products. However in the case of Buick performance and aftermarket parts, its a pretty small market and it can easily get over saturated as we can see by already having lost one of the bigger vendors (Poston). It would be a benefit to everyone if we worked together, as a community. And to give James credit that's exactly what he did. He had an idea of figuring out how to make an iron block that would be more affordable and better suited for more everyday builds and he explored his options. I think he found the best one so far, by contacting me. TA already has a block, we already know exactly what it takes, and we're the largest vendor of aftermarket Buick parts. Plus you know we'll provide the highest quality piece that we can, and we'll always pull through, we aren't going to vanish into thin air . We're willing to work with someone else to help us produce an iron block if that's what it takes. So, lets turn back the hostility knob a bit, no one likes being attacked nor reading it :beer

 

No need for the bull**** guys, anyone that is even considering venturing into the Buick performance parts business should be praised not attacked. Actions speak louder than words so if you do produce them I will purchase two.

 

Hi james,I thank you for looking out for us and im sorry for the negitive backfire you have recived. i wish you all the best to help us get a cast iron block.i think between TA and ALLPONTIAC great things are to come.:TU:

 

How much does an aluminum block cost? How often do they get repaired? How good is competition,among vendors,for the consumer?

Regards,

455nGLIDE
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->No, block should have to be repaired. What I'm saying is that IF something were to happen it could be fixed. An iron block can not be fixed. TA's aluminum block is about $6500.
Rod has made 1200-1500hp, for years and never blew one up. The iron would crack but it still ran with out blowing up. If you can afford to try to make 1000 hp Buick.. you can afford a $6500 block.

Danie'
OK...1) A TA block is 6500.00 ; 2) Given;No block should have to be repaired..and my third question was answered too at least hypothetically 3) If you are looking to build a 1000HP Buick you would have an option at a a little over half the cost which is great for the Buick consumer. Dont we pay enough for our hobby already? I will speak for myself; If I can can afford to build a 1000HP Buick it does not mean that I have to afford 6500.00(best case scenario right now)...especially if there is an alternative. The Edelbrock heads havent been bad for us have they?
Regards ,

455nGLIDE

 

Man oh man. Whew huh guys???

Mike great post, James we all respect your intentions and only Mike his Dad and Crew actually know what it takes.

TA is Buick.

 

LOL!

 

I for one applaud Devon for his sharp questions - maybe if someone had asked Burek/Bradshaw such tough questions and dug a bit in the Bradshaw sandbox we as a community might have seen that the road being traveled wasn't paved with yellow bricks

... while his olive branch may have been held with talons, I think Devon was only looking out for "us" as a whole and given his business background, it is something that, at least I, appreciate.

Welcome to the Buick world James o No: :beers2:

PS - while you're at it, can you also get us one of these for the BBB ?

 

I welcome all Buick Performance parts that actually help my business, which largely is building Buick High Performance engines. Duplicate parts, such as the Edelbrock STG 1 cylinder head are a waste of time, we have those parts already, they would have been smarter to build a Performer RPM style intake manifold. We actually need that. We don't need alum heads with Chev style stud rockers.. and I have said so in the past. Folks have bashed me for being a "brand loyalist" or whatever, but I am just looking at it from a strickly business perspective. The vast majority of guys out there buying alum cylinder heads, aren't going to run a cam that requires roller rockers.

That said..

I have built 49 455 based Buicks and shipped them all over the country, in the last decade or so. The lastest 580 HP/580 TQ motor went out the door yesterday.

Of those, 40 or so are 500+ HP engines, and I could have used an inexpensive aftermarket iron block, and the customer would have stepped up and made more HP, on maybe a dozen of those motors. Maybe another 10-20 guys are out there, who are scared off by too many stories of broken blocks to even attempt it. Some have switched to BBC power because of the issues.

So I would welcome a HD iron block.

Two things will work against you here.

1. Because of the Bulldog Fiasco, which was spearheaded by a well know Buick guy, you will be hard pressed to get 10 orders with sizable deposits, for a block that exists in only someone's imagination. Forget 50-75, that number will never happen.

2. The market segment of guys looking to produce serious HP, is really pretty small. I personally know, or know of, just about everyone who is making over 800 HP, and I can count those folks on one, maybe both, hands. How many more are out there who will step up, and have deep enough pockets to actually do it.. who knows? That simply a risk that has to be taken by investors that want to produce an iron block. With the advent of the Centrifugal Supercharger craze, the numbers are certainly larger than they were 10 years ago.

On the cost issues... I currently have 3 TA alum blocks on order. One for the business as a development piece, and 2 for paying customers. In both those instances, cost of the block was not a big factor. Those are 35-40+ K Billet crank, FI sheet metal manifold, Centrifugally Supercharged motors, so the cost of the TA block was just a piece of the puzzle, but not a deal breaker. In fact, both of my customer's like the idea of a block that could be repaired, if they broke a rod or something like that.

I really think that the market segment for the Iron block is not the 1000+ HP crowd. As Rod said, if you can afford to build that kind of power, you can afford a 6K block. The market segment is actually the second tier of folks, looking to build 650-800 HP reliably, most likely with a power adder, for their street and strip cars. For those folks, a $6K block is not in the cards.

If a block could be brought to the market, that is an exact duplicate of the stock block, but with simply more material in the critical areas, as well as 4 bolt main caps on the center 3, there is a market for that block. Keep it simple, keep development costs low, and resist the bells and whistles. The only thing I would change besides the extra material is to add the later GM bell housing pattern to the block.

It's simply the economics.. I can use a stock block to build that motor, but with the costs of the add ons, as well as the issues of rpm capability and cylinder sealing that exist with a block with .100-.200 thick cylinder walls, and thin main bearing bulkheads, an iron block, without these limitations, would be welcome by all Buick builders and Vendors.

A fully machined, girdled, lifter bore girdled, filled and cryo'ed 455 stock block costs right in the neighborhood of $2800-3K. That block still has durability concerns with the main caps, as well as rpm limitations due to oiling. Add overhead priority oiling, as well as external oil pumps and lines, and the cost goes way up from there, and those guys are the ones who are buying the TA block. For them, it's a wise investment, and the cost is secondary.

If an improved iron block was brought to market, and the total cost (block purchase and required machining) was in the $3000 to $3500 range then I do believe you could sell 50-100 of them every 3-5 years. Maybe more, but let's be realistic in a tough economy right now.

But that small volume $2600-2800 block probably can't be produced, with any profit margin, in the world we live in today.. Certainly not in the States.

That's what your working against here.

I applaud your efforts James, even if I have to shake my head a bit at your delivery, but to each his own I guess. Your guys have apparently made it work with Pontiac, which has a somewhat larger segment than the Buicks, but then again it's not the bowtie crowd either. But keeping it simple, and keeping costs down, while producing a quality product, will be the key to a successful endeavor here. And it certainly wouldn't hurt to attempt to partner with a big vendor like TA to add credibility to the effort.

I know that if such a block existed, I personally could probably sell 3-5 of them a year. And who knows, maybe the next level of Buick Performance would explode from the addition of a durable iron block.. and that number would be 8-10 that would go out the doors here.. And that's just me, building each and every motor personally, in a one man shop.

Key is, someone has to be willing to "back pocket" the development costs, and bring a quality product to market. Those folks are hard to find. It's a much more risky investment than even real estate right now.

Good luck, I certainly will be here to support any effort made.

JW