It's funny, when I started out with Buicks, it was because it was cheap performance since most people wanted Chevy. Chevys were more popular and more in demand and expensive to buy and more likely to be stolen. A buddys Chevelle 454 SS got stolen 3 times. So, I bought a 67 Riv GS for $425 in 1976, then a 70 X in 1978 for a whopping $1800. So Buicks offered me the most bang for the buck plus I like being different..... The cost savings continued since with mostly stock parts I was able to get into the high 10s and along the way ran motors for literally thousands of passes with motors yanked out of cars and NOT rebuilt, kinda like people do with LS motors today all of which saved me money. Seemed like the Chevy guys were breaking stuff and rebuilding a lot more. It's when you want to go alot faster that it costs the big bucks. And I wouldn't say we are "behind", I'd say we are just on another path and a less crowded one.....leading to a different place.
Another way to look at: It's like building a house, we now have parts to provide a "good foundation", but your budget and needs will dictate the build. "Tiny house", conservative, off the grid, or Radically extravagant..................
Yup, That is the one. My Olds buddy and I had a long conversation about the direction that our beloved off brand cars were headed. He had been attending the Dick Miller event for a long time, and he’s been saying the same thing as us. Attendance has been dwindling, and very few have stepped up with an Olds based motor. We saw quite a few that were converted to Chevy motors, whether it was a small block, big block or LS. As much as I love going to that event, I didn’t care for the fact that there was zero heads up racing, either. I know opinions are like you know what, but bracket racing has become the same old same old. Don’t get me wrong. Any day at the dragstrip is a good day, and I bracket raced for years. But in a lot of cases, it doesn’t push people to step up and go faster. That’s where I think a lot of the excitement is lost. The young blood is all about heads up and street cars. Drag Week is a prime example.
Good point, I get to a combination that works for bracket racing and I tend leave it alone. Not trying to set any records......
I got into Buicks for the challenge of building one. I had big dreams for my 70 Stage 1. Even with the V6 transplant in it. I got my share of looks. Even from Suberbird owners. Without the hood open you couldn't tell. When I got into Buicks the only performance parts where Kenne-Bell. I was shocked when I joined this forum and found that Jim Bell turned coat and dropped Buick. But TA performance has much more than Bell ever had. Kenne-Bell may have thought that he couldn't make money only producing Buick parts. However TA performance is going well and believe it is putting food on Mike's Table. He has and still is making history in the name of Buick performance. My wagon isn't much but she is all mine, yeah, She has her rust issues. But runs and drives. I am usually the only Buick at a show. So people walk by the wagon. Who gives a ***** what they think. I have the kahunas to enter. They can have their me too camaros. If I was given a new camaro it would be at the dealership saying what will you give me for this POS. Any body with a check book/or credit can have a fast car. I will continue to enjoy driving my wagon. Laughing at the fools who make payments for more than I paid for my car. Yeah, I would love to build the 350 in my wagon. Some century I will. It would look cool though popping my hood on my 5 color rusty wagon and have a built aluminum headed SBB with the SP3 on it. People may stop then. So what if they don't me and the wife love our wagon. Tim
Well, with all this talk of high performance, we forget one important point. There are a lot of us who for what ever reason run a stock restored Buick that generally is thought of as some old man's car. I love it when my "dead" stock Electra shows up some badly raced up pony car or gives some modern drivers pause to reconsider. We are the "silent" majority; - walking softly in a luxurious Buick and beating others with a big torquey stick. It's also in how you drive the car, I've beat some very strong cars just by being the better driver and knowing full well what my machine is capable of. With a good launch a 5000 lb Electra will take out a light-weight tire-spinning Mustang or Camaro that has more horsepower. To those of you who have the means to race up and prove what a Buick can do with the right equipment, more power to you, I'll cheer you on from the poor seats. Besides all the big dollar tricks, I enjoy reading about the little ones that are more budget friendly.
I agree with you where you reference traction. Take this for example the Hellcat 3.4 to 60 mph. The jeep trailhawk same motor but all wheel drive and heavy 3.3 to 60. The hell cat wins in the quarter but to 60 the SUV takes it. Once I get my crap together and can drive my 550 hp Buick the first phase is tune it to perfection. Then work on getting it to have maximum traction with 13 inch wide tires and upgrading the suspension. Learning the car, what rpm can it actually hold on the street if any in first gear so and so forth. Burn outs are fun but you loose races if you can't hook. I've seen plenty high horsepower cars loose to a car that won from the hit. The higher powered car makes up ground at the top of the track but if they don't drive around them does it matter? Of I would of had another 50 ft, I've heard that too many times to count. A good driver in an old car can really hang, new cars if you know how to use launch control, they hook hard and are harder to jump out of the whole. That's what makes it fun though.
30 years ago I found a gorgeous 70 Skylark with a bad 350 for $200, then found a wrecked 50K mile, 70 wildcat for $200 and got a Ford 9" posi out of a Cougar for free. Put those all together with some mild head work, used MT headers, 2-1/2" exhaust and 3.90 gears, 10" rims with sportsman tires and a 3000 stall converter. Add home made control arms for traction and I did not have $900 in the thing. Car ran 13.5's because it was only an 1/8 mile car but on the street it hooked hard on the street and was gone. I had beaten some very expensive vehicles red light to red light. From a 50-60 mph roll I was toast. Should have never sold that car... Today that would cost $8-10K. Today 800-1000 hp seems to be the bench mark for street cars but c'mon guys you can't put that to the ground on the street from a dig. Of course no one wants to start from a dig anymore so you have to make a decision... Who do you want to be? I have a 600 hp 02 Mustang that weighs 3K lbs., with suspension work that hooks pretty well in 1st but from a 30-50 mph roll it will run with pretty much anything under 800 hp. Vinny just played with a blown newer Z28 and the guy crawled past him, Vinny gave up at 125. They stopped and talked. Z guy said he was putting down "650" to the wheels. Was he? I don't know. I do know my Mustang could not record more than 480-500 at the wheels without smoking the tires on the dyno, we quit after two pulls as we got the tune correct. I have buried stock SS Camaros, SRT's, 5.0 Coyote Mustangs and a Ford GT350. Even a Hellcat lost the intitial 30 mph roll when he spun and I didn't till we hit 80 and he walked by with this "how is a stock appearing white nothing Mustang still here" look. That 02 will give you 18 city and 24 hwy if you want but I generally don't get more than 13-14 city with the 60# injectors and monster fuel pumps. Car was built for 750 crank hp but my SP1 blower is maxed out spinning 17K rpm to make I'm guessing 600 crank hp based on the dyno. I have $20K in it total including a really clean 02 with leather car, fully forged, APR block, ported, flowed heads with blower cams, pro force 750 hp trans, Macleod clutch, aluminum driveshaft, fully adjustable four link suspension, etc... Would I build it again? NO! I bought a project off a kid that could not finish it and went too far. For $20K I could have had a nice Riv/Wildcat. But it was a gift for Vinny. The upside is cops don't pay attention to a white generic 02 Mustang with no GT badges. It is loud however and rolls on 315 MT's All that said I would rather drive a 65 or 67 Riv or 69-70 Wildcat that went 13.0's... I'm gonna build one soon too... Mikey
All that said I would rather drive a 65 or 67 Riv or 69-70 Wildcat that went 13.0's... I'm gonna build one soon too... Mikey...... i have a 70 wildcat that has run a best of 13.008 and i want 12.5 now................... but it is real fun to spank unsuspecting late model newer cars with the TA sale going i am real tempted to get a aluminum block for later use............ scott
Before my little guy came i felt a desperation, it was a felling that now was the time to go buy parts because i wouldent be able to later, i eneded up getting alot of parts. Now i dont have the time to put them in. Then the buger was born and the wife tells me to buy not sell another Buick for gift to me. As far as your Thread Ethan. Keep doing you and going fast and the rest will follow. For some like me this is the only way I learn about Buick engines. No one in my life can teach me about Buicks. When you were a pimpled faced youngster you too needed to learn and also somebody somewhere had a fast Buick (maybe your pops) that influenced you. As funny as it sounds me an u being only 2-5 years apart and i have no shame or pride to tell you but in a proper analogy Im and others are that pimpled face kid and you are "that guy" with the fast buick.. Just keep documentation of what you do(and others in the same boat) and we will follow
I think we should do like go fund me car everybody chip in what they can put it toward hellcat eater be a buick mascot for club an all around ground pounder lol operation wildcat
Back to the thread... Are we really so far behind or on a different path? More than 600 hp in a two wheel drive car is useless on the street in any kind of traffic much less in wet or snow conditions. My T has run a best of 11.18-11.23 @ 123-124 mph and in the rain is a nightmare unless I turn the boost down even at highway speeds. I know electronic nanny cars with traction/braking enhancement make driving them in less than ideal conditions safer than my T; but even in dry conditions you will not experience putting that power to the ground under 40-50 mph as you will be backpedaling or on traction control. So basically you have bragging rights for bench racing. I have a friend who has a georgous 66 Chevelle puting 776 to the ground and the thing run into the high 9's on street tires but on the street can't use it really except to activate car alarms in parking lots. I was really tempted when I was offered a 592" BBF for $11K that made 800hp on pump gas and could take a 300hp nitrous shot to put in my 96 Ford conversion van. I seriously considered that. Can you imagine that sleeper? I am personally not interested in playing the "horsepower game" but just want a land yacht I can use daily, work on myself without needing a laptop that goes high 12's, low 13's, well maybe low to mid 12's and is reliable (the T was never reliable, she was a high maintainence wench). So I guess I will be left behind. Mikey
After my posts and reading through a lot of well thought out ideas, I can put it in this nutshell: the factory blocks can't take the HP numbers of other brands, Tomahawk blocks and the really good heads are expensive.
I use an old D-1 that uses engine oil. Have no problems with oil pressure. Has all of the oil mods, max oil pressure is 80psi, hot idle (900 rpm) 20 psi.
For those not out there racing, We Are Far Behind... I race at different heads up races thru the year, and every November I race the Street Car Super Nationals in Las Vegas, I run the 275 Drag Radial heads up class, I’m almost always the only Buick, and there’s maybe a few scattered in other slower classes... My car is at least 500 lbs over minimum class weight, and at least 1000 horsepower less than almost the whole damn field, and if I could actually get my **** to work, the best I could probably do is a 5.30 1/8 mile pass, fun fact, the 275 record is 1 second faster, 4.37!!!!! With our “good foundation” of parts, We have the ability to make big power and actually be competitive.... But it’s not happening. Reality from the racing world.... YUP FAR BEHIND.....
I compare hot rods to having kids, if you wait till your "ready" it will never happen. Just chip away at it,..if your patient it will all come together. "Badbuick" gets what I'm saying better than most I believe. We have what we need and it's really no more expensive than a BBC or BBF or whatever. Them guys pay $5+k for blocks same as we do, billet cranks are $3500+ no matter the engine, same for a QUALITY forged crank, our rods are no more than the good stuff for a BBC. I think alot of guys get confused on the parts because there are ALOT more options for the other brands, but that doesn't mean that are what the fast guys are using. As to stock block strength, yes our blocks don't like 7500+rpm and 800hp but hell no stock block does, that's why there are aftermarket blocks for all the others too. A correctly done boosted setup would live a happy life with a stock block if kept around 750-800hp and 6500rpm. It loads the crank and block very differently than a high rpm NA setup. When I say we are behind, I'm simply saying what we avaliable isn't being put to as good as use as it could be that's all. I just don't feel like we are at such the disadvantage as alot of people would have you believe,..we just don't utilize it like we should
I know Bobb Makely is building the baddest GS of all time and he is hoping that it will be able to at least show in a big meet. Winning requires a full time commitment at that level.
Bobb is one of the people that, if I were a betting man, I'd bet on him getting to the level Doug mentioned. What limits Bobb is the fact that his time is limited because he runs businesses, and he helps others, especially his friends. And, he is a dedicated family man with a very supportive wife.
Your right on Ethan.. I saw that post the other day about a 632BBC for 13K or something like that, and had to laugh.. that summit motor is actually an example of the range of quality that is available for a BBC performance engine, and comparing that motor to one of my 555's, is apples and oranges. We have always had some high quality stuff to work with thanks to Mike and the gang at TA, and it seems from what I see so far, Kenny Betts is doing the same type of quality stuff. Compare our 1100+ HP engines to a Rehr Morrision 632, and you will find the price is not a lot different. The HP bellybuttons are still less, but not anywhere near half price. JW
