I've wondered this for years, but moreso here lately. Why are we as Buick enthusiast so far behind the other guys in terms of performance?? We have everything we need to be taken seriously, but very few step up, spend the money and do it!! We have the Tomahawk, we have Billet 500+cfm heads, we have Procharger kits, we have cast heads that will take you well into 8's,..we have Roots blower kits,..we now have a nice 350 head within our grasp,...I don't get it. We have all this cutting edge stuff that contrary to popular belief is priced on par with all the Brand X stuff. The Information is out there, this isn't 1985 where you learn by trial and error, if you want a turbo 455 build the damn thing and do it right not some hacked together mess. The information is abundant and readily available,..blow through carbs come all but spot on the builders are so good now. Self learning EFI etc,..stop being scared and just do it, there are guys here that will help, alot of us have done lots of crap with lots of different cars. Seems like everyone builds the same ole thing over and over. Put some N20 on a forged bottom end and give it hell,. Make the calls and do the research and it will live with more than a 75 shot. We have some guys that built some attention getting stuff lately for sure,..1k hp NA engines under 600in aren't exactly an easy thing to do with any brand, but yet we have a handful who have done it among us. I just want to see some impressive stuff at the few events we have, if people see the potential they will branch out and convert and our stuff will thrive instead of barely surviving. TOMAHAWK BLOCKS ARE $4500!!!,..get the 3.25 main version and use a stock crank, it's a proven piece that when prepped correctly will handle alot of HP, 800hp RELIABLE engines are attainable with off tge shelf stuff
Well put from one of the other people pushing to go faster. Hope to see you at the Nationals next month.
You are 100% correct, I've wondered the same thing since I joined here a few years ago after spending years on BBF boards and seeing them make 800+ pump and easy 1000+ NA for years....Let me gather my thoughts tonight and I will come back on tomorrow with a non brand loyal response....
I couldn't agree more, I'm 20 so I'm young and don't have a lot of the experience the rest of you guys have yet but I've grown up with a dad who has always owned Buick's and wondered why it seemed like the other brands were doing so much more. I've grown up in the middle of the huge LS motor craze and the big swing of forced induction becoming more and more common in all kinds of cars with all kinds of motors. I know from what I've read and learned on here that yes our big blocks don't have the strongest of cylinder blocks as some of the other motors at that time or modern blocks do now but I've always wondered why there aren't more guys applying what is being done to these new motors like the LS to ours. A lot of these LS motors making big power on stock internals are able to do so because their tunes are deadly accurate and being conservative and working their way up bit by bit, which the tune can be attributed to the control their ECU's give them however there are guys with carbed LS motors still doing the same thing. I've always wondered what could be done with a big block that's fabbed up with some twin turbo set up using the stock manifolds in the same way the LS guys are doing on budget builds and making sure we've got a fuel system to support it and an ignition system to be able to adjust the timing to a safe spot and working up from there. With the oiling problems our blocks have doing the usual oil modifications would obviously be a good idea since the turbos would be taking oil away from the block but I'm curious to what a guy could do, and how reliable the motor could be as long as he didn't get greedy and maybe kept it a bit rich and the timing pretty conservative.
Just as a thought primer for what I'm going to say tomorrow to start thinking about and please no one take offense.....blocks and heads...... something most guys don't think about, for instance: A worst case BBF has a bigger distance between cam and crank center line than almost anything out there, even so called tall deck BBC, and I'd wager much larger than a BBB allowing for much larger strokes in a factory block and will take 800 hp easy with 2 bolt mains and no girdles or supports whatsoever, NO machining, NO welding, and they'll NEVER break....and that's out of a readily available $100 block from a junk yard out of anything ever made with a 429 or 460 including grain trucks or pickups for starters. There were literally millions of them made, the later ones from say a 1990 F250 (D1 casting if you care) are actually better because the cylinder skirts are longer. No filler in block, no girdle, no dry block, no nothing. And I'll get into canted valves and valve shrouding tomorrow....I promise, I'm not a Ford guy per se and I'm just being 100% honest, I'll talk about other brands tomorrow too....
Judgemental people! Thats the issue! If your buick isn't 100 percent original Most of the buick community will criticize you! If it doesn't have the original heavy ass 14x6 wheels on it that arent wide enough to support a decent sized safe tire then its NOt right! If your 50 year old belts hoses and plug wires arent positioned right and dont have correct date codes then u get shunned! There is a lot of folks that get pissed when u put a light aluminum wheel with oversized tires on your classic buick or lower it or run a open element breather instead if the restrictive stock one. Imagine their attitude when u cut a hole in a stock gs hood and put a 10-71 blower with 2 4150s on it thru the hood! Those guys that intimidate others are holding back a lot of foward progress from seeing bad ass builds. Personally the way i see it its my car my rules! I turn the wrenches i work to pay for the parts! Instead of the neagtive people bitching they should support fellow buick enthusiasts to keep the hobby alive, whether it be something as simple as a carb rebuild or as complex as building a big tire tube chassis pro tour gs. Rant over!
Sounds like we need a culture shift, but that doesn't happen overnight... Speaking on these lines, I'll get to 500hp in the Riv someday. It may not be the way others would do it. I can also imagine that some of the guys planning builds with 7-800hp 454's just want to go fast too, but also have more aftermarket support and general knowledge base on their hundreds of forums. This might be personal instead of relevant to the thread, but it's this: I will make mistakes getting to that power level, but I also don't want somebody to "guide" or "lead" me through it in a way that stifles my creativity. If no one is there to even try it, what have we done?
The same happens with most other makes and models as well. It's usually the "numbers match, paint dabs on everything snobs" or someone who doesn't even own one. Ignore them or just tell them to "piss off".
Simple math is the answer to your question. Your talking about the 1%.. those folks who will spend whatever it takes to go fast, regardless of brand. 1% of the Chev or Ford or Mopar crowd is a hell of a lot more individuals than 1% of the Buick crowd. Plus they have been at it for 20+ years, with a vast array of parts available. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That being said, in my shop I have: Billet headed 555 BBB going in a tube chassis race car.- shouting for the 7's NA Gear Drive F3R Pro Charger for a BBB, along with a solid BBB alum block and Billet heads and all the goodies to make over 2K hP on Alky. Enough power to put a 2350 lbs GS into the very low 7's or high 6's. 555 BBB with a big Vortec charger and EFI about to make in excess of 1KHP on pump gas - that will power what should be the fastest 65 GS on the planet. A twin turbo 355ci EFI SBB project, that even on low boost should make over 600 HP, and as you said the new head for that is due out soon. __________________________________________________________________________________ Has nothing to do with car shows guys or anyone looking down their nose at folks. Has everything to do with the copious amounts of money that is required to any of the projects listed above. Ethan, you are in the midst of such a project, and for sure know that with the normal grind of life and family sucking the resources constantly, it takes years to really step up big with the toys. Not many have 50K+ just burning a hole in their pocket, and even if they do, it takes a while to do any of this stuff.. Consider most of the cars and outstanding motors out there, they all were/are multi-year projects. Be patient grasshopper, they are coming. JW
IMHO, it's the demographic, the Buick community is no where close in size to others and that's makes evolution slow and pricey. Nowadays, 700-900 hp the normn and people with money and time don't need the worries of a BBB longevity in excess of 600hp that is cited on this board and elsewhere well definitely turn people off. "Just keep under 6k and you'll be fine." Add a girdle, halo, and some fill.... (On the other side, the SBB has potential for durability but parts and R & D are scarce.) That's exactly what I am going to through with my project. I have 76 block and still concerned with durability. It's throwing my hands in the air. I have witnessed dyno run of an aluminum SBF "Clevor" stroker 461 CID pull over 730hp at 6800 on 92 octane from Mobil. Those CHI 3V heads are sick! That engine is going in a Pantera that will be tracked. From carb to Pan like the engine sits, $20k. The engine builder preferred a cast or CGI block over the aluminum because he says that the latter isn't consistent on power as it fluctuates. Now with TA oferring their 35Th anniversary sale, it's tempting for reassurance. Heads wise, i haven't done enough research on the stage two heads. Again, those CHI heads impressed the crap out of me.
Well said, Jim. I am a some-timer at Visner Engine Development. We make billet aluminum blocks, heads, intakes, throttle bodies, etc. These parts are quite expensive (check their website) and the folks who purchase them are very serious about going fast. Most are used in drag race applications. Some are standing mile or land speed racers. They enter, for the most part, races that the payout is high. Many have between $75,000 to $100,000 in their engines with a spare in the trailer. As these racers gain notoriety, sponsors come on board to help with expenses. Like anything else, it takes $$, along with talent, to get into the winner's circle. I had the opportunity to go to Donald 'Duck' Long's No Mercy race in Georgia race this weekend with Dave Visner to meet customers, but other events kept me here.
@Jim Weise hit the nail on the head. And I think the fact that there is no Camaro or Mustang or Challenger in the modern Buick line makes it less likely that the Buick brand will be associated with performance. We are lucky the Buick brand survived 2008 (thanks to sales in China).
To make short on something Jim hit on that directly applies to me, I'm straight outta $$$$$$. I'm doing the efi and nitrous thing, but I'd love nothing more than a tomahawk making 600+ on pump gas and laugh at a 250 shot once in a while. In a close second would be a TT sbb. But those are Champaign dreams on my current PBR budget....
Funny this thread popped up. I was thinking recently that a very cool build would be a GNX (clone) to rival the Hellcat, Demon, and other ‘supermuscle’ out there now. Build a Tomahawk specifically for fuel injection and boost-either blower or turbo, add the coolers and chillers and such, and set it in a tube chassis with good brakes. Not sure whether it should be auto or manual (manual would be cooler!) . Widen the flares, paint it black, drive like stolen. But...I don’t have ‘house money’ to spend (and stay married) so...someone else? That said, I agree with Jim that 1% of Buick people is a lot smaller number than 1% of Brands X. (Not just for the builds but also for the builders, magazines, culture, etc. that jumps onto the big power bandwagon). Playing a big part is the fact that Buick as a performance company died in 1988. Brand Xers couldn’t ignore the Nail, the modern BBB, nor the intercooled turbo cars. More recently the SC3800 (fwd Regal mainly) cars had some credibility but Pontiac stole it with the sportier Grand Prix. Now? Their target demographic is ‘the sisterhood of cake’. Patrick
I would love more out of my GS 350 Hugger. The block I got from you in fact. And I still give thanks for that!. Im 50 yrs old and still have 4 kiddos at home. I pulled back from drag strip trips because I cant afford to loose what little motor I have. Like some said already. Our numbers are real low compared to other brand owners but I live thru those who cant blast down the track at 140mph. I wanted to go to BG but I cant even afford to do that.
There is sooo much more out there now a days. A VERY good friend of mine (Lucas, you would know him) just bought a 2014 Mustang Coyote twin turbo 1,800 hp street car that runs on E85. Yes, that's right, one thousand and eight hundred horse power, and with all the aftermarket backing its reliable and very streetable...well as when you drive normally. Idles at about 800 rpm. It's very trick, you can dial back the boost to zero with a push of a button. This thing is freakin scary to drive. It will rip the drag radials apart at so far that we know at 80 mph. Probably even at higher speeds...who knows, Glenn doesn't want to try it. You literally have to relearn how to drive when you're in this thing. Point is, you can now buy or have built for you anything car wise if you can afford it. My friend isn't even a car guy...he just likes fast stuff and is extremely wealthy.
I dream of being one of the 1% of the Buick community that can build the reliable uber horsepower tomahawk motors. But I am trying to be the generation that sets my son and subsequent children up to be more successful than me. What does that mean, I'm investing tons of money into ways to set up a real estate business that will carry my family, hopefully for generations. If I'm successful, if my kid decides he wants to be a cardiologist or just be a mechanic he can do so with confidence. For me I joined the Army because my grandfather was my role model and I had no flippin direction or clue what to do with my life. My parents taught me that college wasn't an option. I know better now but it was ingrained in me I couldn't go. That was because they themselves could barely provide for us kids. They did their best with what they could provide but they were thinking of only making it by. I'm looking to be the generation that changes that. So for me if I can ever get my 550-575 hp 462 71 skylark going I'll be happy with that as it is. If my business does well and I can take a big chunk of cash and spend it on my dream build I will. That's at least 10 years out though. I could take my overhead earnings now and spend 18 grand a year into a build but I'm funneling that money to places that will make exponential profit later. Maybe then my son and I can build cars when he comes of age. Hell if my real estate endeavors go as well as I like my dream is to build a raceway. Small scale 1/8 mile. Big scale by an old air strip, have a half mile or better drag strip and a circuit/ autocross/ drift possibilities. If I make enough off it just run a car/machine shop off the premises. I've got tons of things brewing g to get there, including finely taking advantage of my disabled veteran status. At first I was to prideful/scared to admit it. I'm older now and have a kid and have swallowed that pride/shame and know I'm screwed up in a few ways. At first my foolish brain though by a 4x4 turbo diesel with those funds, then it was save it and buy a fully built Buick. Then finally I came to my senses and was like by more real estate wait for it to mature, make 100 grand profit I don't have to re-invest and by the truck, trailer and car in it. Just saying thinking bigger than just the car right now.
I ignore those type. My car will never be pretty. Its function over aesthetics and probably always will be. My cars meant to be raw and defiant. It's an underdog but when I can put someone in their place it's worth it. The most fun I have ever had was driving it right after i bought if for 5 grand. Beat up exterior/interior. It s poked a little, had a smashed up right fender that squeaked as it looked. The original owner Joe Lucas, RIP started turning it into a bracket car at the end of his life. His kid Joe Lucas Jr. Was responsible for the cars bad condition before I got it. I didnt know it then but it had a large cam and ported and polished heads with 30 over pistons in the little 350. Hot Mallory ignition. Turbo 350 tranny with a stout shift kit. Lakewood ladder traction bars, 12.5 inch wide rear tires and not enough power to really boil them with a 3.55 pontiac posi. What did that mean, that thing launched stupid hard. I would pull up to lights on highway 5 in Anna and Mckinney Texas and embarrass people to 60. It was the best eating 5.7 chargers and 4.6 mustang's of the line. It was 2012 at this time I ran a 6.2 Camaro that nosed me out by 60 but I jumped him by a car out of the whole. We ran a few more times, I don't know if I ever got him but we were side by side the whole way. I thought it was gonna pop I started wrapping it to 6,000 RPM before shifting. Generally 5500 is all I was running it to before that. The cameo guy of course said nice chevelle and is that a big block? Made my day to tell him no and no. The 350 is still on the stand with an sp3 sitting on it now. I put a 462 in the 71 for now but that sbb will be back one day ruining people's day stop light to stoplight. Leaning towards a nascar take out rod rpm screamer.
Alright, I thought about things as I went to sleep last night, and I figured I'd post from personal experience (for big HP stuff, that means I'm going to be talking Fords as that's what I've done 80% of my "serious" builds on) and what I've seen without getting into block/head designs and whatnot, and turning this into a "whatever" brand bash type thing, and I most certainly don't want anyone thinking I'm bashing the Buick stuff...... If a guy is shooting for relatively easy mid 10s and up, a BBB is a fantastic platform to start with. We all know that they were one of, if not the, best performing factory big block right out of the gate. It seems like a guy can take some stock type heads, port match them, add a B4B, a 1000 cfm Quadrajet, such and such cam, etc......And everybody knows how to build the exact same engine with off the shelf parts. Once we get going faster than that, the block becomes a problem, and having to fork out $4500 for a block to make an engine be reliable at "only" 700+ hp when a $100-$500 junk yard block from another brand will take it all day long becomes cost prohibitive for a lot of guys....Especially when you see that you could build a 383 stroker SBC, put it on nitrous, and throw it into a mid 70s Nova and run 10s for a complete outlay of under $10k including the car. One of the biggest differences I see between this board and BBB and the Ford boards and BBFs: Nobody runs off the shelf stuff there. Not cams, not converters, not carbs, etc. Each engine is absolutely optimized to the specific car/truck it's going in, and it's use. When I build a BBF, I give a call to one of the cam guys (Scotty Johnston at Re-In-Carnation, Randy at RMCompetition, Carl at Cars by Carl, Charlie at BFEvans, etc.), and tell them I'm looking for a cam. I'll be on the phone for 1/2 hour with them discussing: What my goals are, what cubic inches, what heads, which intake, which cam, what my use is, what fuel do I have available, what the car is, what my elevation is, how much the car weighs, what gear ratio, what transmission, and on and on. This gets done for pretty much any BBF or Mopar build out there, whether it's a 375 hp 600 ft.-lbs tow vehicle, or a 1200 hp screamer. Cost? It's $30 more than an off the shelf cam and lifter set from Comp or Lunati, and I get custom lifters to boot. Then I'll call up Coan or PA, and I'll go through the same thing for my converter. Then my carb, and so on....By the time I'm done, for an extra $100-$200 or so, I've got an engine/transmission set-up that is absolutely, positively the best it can be for my car, with my set-up. I know with certainty that it runs better than any other one out there can, and it's a 100% custom designed engine, not a recipe engine where you put the same parts on that everybody else does. If two different engines both make 400 hp and 500 ft.-lbs., but one is optimized for the vehicle it's being put in (torque curves, RPM range, etc.), the optimized one is going to blow that off the shelf engine into the weeds. And this is the rule, not the exception on that side, almost nobody uses an off the shelf grind, no matter how good it may be, you can guarantee that it's not THE BEST it can be, and most guys on that side will pay the $30 for it to be THE BEST.....I've even got a custom cam in my beater truck, because seriously, why wouldn't you? Next is the sharing of information on head designs/ports. On that side, Scotty is the man at cast iron stock head porting, and has different port designs for different heads and different uses. If I want a street burner with my D0VE casting heads or a max effort HP build with the same heads, there are different port designs he's optimized for them, and believe me, they do not just match the gaskets. The exhaust ports on my heads are trapezoid shaped, with the top being much, much narrower than the bottom, and they are no where near gasket matched. Bigger isn't always better on ports, and I guarantee the gasket maker definitely doesn't know what size or port shape is best for your stuff. Scotty actually has a website with porting instructions and flow numbers for each style of head, and it's $20 to join for life, or if you buy parts from him it's free. He'll also let you send him your head, and he'll port just one intake and one exhaust for you to copy and send them back, or he's actually got heads that he's cut into one cylinder sections and ported that he'll send you that single section to copy. It seems to me for the average guy on here to build something close to what the Buick pros are doing at home, there needs to be more pros willing to give out their info, but hard earned secrets can be very difficult to give up....I'm certainly not expecting any of the guys on here to just start doing that, but I know the Chevy/Ford/Mopar camps have guys that do, and that makes it easier for the average schmo to build a monster engine on his budget doing it himself. I've said it before, and this is no bash, but this site reminds me of what the BBF site was 10 or 15 years ago. People are still learning here, over there it seems like everybody kind of knows what's what, and all the info is there for the taking or just a phone call away. They've had more years to develop and learn the little ins and outs. An example: The ports on the intake manifold on my 552" are not all ported the same, because the guys have learned with the Torker II that's on it, cylinders 3, 5, and 8 like the port roof raised, a couple don't like anything, and some like it closer to port matched. Not all 8 cylinders like the same port design, and those guys have figured it out, and let you know about it. The real serious guys even run different cam lobe profiles in certain cylinders, because not all 8 cylinders run exactly the same. I can't imagine how much time those guys have into learning that info, but they'll let you know about it for free. It might only be 10 hp, but 10 hp is 10 more than the other guy that just port matched them all. I'm sure in a few years, there will be more info on what to do specifically on here. The cost of building a 500 HP Chevy, Ford, or Mopar are not that much different than building an 900 HP one, as the factory blocks can take the abuse, aluminum race heads like AFRs or Brodix only cost $300-$500 more than street Edelbrocks, there's multitude race intakes like the Mafia that cost the same price as a run of the mill Performer, a big custom camshaft only cost $30 more than an off the shelf RV cam, etc. So you see way more guys building really high HP stuff because the cash outlay is easily within reach of anybody trying to build a new engine. The only reason my Mach 1 doesn't have 800+ HP is because I wanted it streetable and pump gas friendly. For the exact same cost as I've got into it, I could've easily made another 200 or even 500 HP but it wasn't my goal. The "big" stuff costs the same or dang close to it as the streety stuff. If I've got a $100 junk yard block out of a pickup, building it into a 572" monster cost the exact same as building it into a 460" stocker because the block doesn't take any special machining, and the Chevy and Mopar guys have it the same. The cranks, rods, and pistons all cost the same, which is about $1500 for a full rotating stroker assembly with good Scat crank, Scat Rods, and Icon/Probe/etc. pistons. If I don't mind building a Chinese rotating assembly based engine, I can get a complete 557" stroker assembly for under $1000 from eBay, and it'll run just dandy for 99% of the people out there. That's right, under $1000 gets you a bolt in 557 cubes. I also think that a lot of the guys on here have had their cars for years, and probably built them the way they are currently 10 or 20 years ago, and are happy with what they have. Most guys get their cars into the 13s, 12s, 11s, 10s, or whatever and are happy with it, and it's tough to pull a good running engine out of a car you're currently enjoying just to try to push it faster. A lot of the LS guys are just getting into cars and building their 1st or 2nd hot rod, so it's no biggie for them to make big power "while you're there"..... Sorry for the very long, very Ford-centric post, but like I said, that's what I've got the most experience with, but you could adapt my info to Mopars and Chevys, too. Hopefully I didn't offend anyone, and I know there's tons and tons of guys on here smarter than me, but that's how I see the max performance occurance discrepancy between the Buicks and other brands shaking out and the reasons for it.....
