People buy these kits because they are too tight fisted to pay up for new components, they use this stuff in the hope that it will stop a corrosion leak or a stone damaged condenser. I tried about a dozen treatments as an exprement, the results were dissapointing, and I could never reccomend this type of stuff. Off to bed, TTFN
Thank you, I can appreciate that..........I used to do a/c work for a living a long time ago, but it was before 134 was forced upon us.........I guess I have an old school way of thinking, but I will argue the point that the high side pressure of that stuff is just plain too high for older systems. Sure they can take it, but they were not designed to be operated that way. That is my opinion.:bglasses:
Contamination of an auto a/c system in the context being discussed has nothing to do with air and moisture. You think Im rude, thats fine youre entitled to your opinion. I think it is rude to inform or suggest a procedure with limited knowledge on the subject. Maybe my comment was rude! But I do see a pattern in your posts which leads me to believe you know little about current auto a/c systems and procedures, not bashing just an observation. Your choice of trade is no concern of mine. I surely can fix my lawnmower but would not dare give advice to someone on how to repair theirs! Based solely on a few weekends in my garage. I do apologize for my remark and hope you and your family are making the best of things! MACS phone information: (215) 631-7020 Good person to speak with concerning this topic would be. Paul DeGuiseppi Manager of Service Training paul@macsw.org
I can understand that, but similarly auto ac systems are not designed to contain HCs either. It is amazing to learn just how many folk who work on their own ac dont even realise that a vacuum is essential, and simply charge straight in to the system. With R134a the worst that you can expect is a knackered compressor, with HCs you have two sides of the combustion triangle under high pressure. You guys are lucky, we woke up one newyears morning and discovered that R12 was banned..period. Although many don't pay for a retrofit, some of the better quality classic vehicles do come to me for a retrofit, and these conversions have been very successfull, trust me if the owners were not happy, then I would be told!!! The pressures are a little elevated, compaired to R12, but not a great deal. I do a lot of work on BMWs, and own a 92 525ix, this car was one of the first E34s with R134a, the only difference between the same car with R12 is the refrigerant and lubricant, all other components are identical, Later models have LESS robust components, so I would say that there was plenty of reserve in the old R12 systems that the manufacturers are now removing to save cash.
In the last 25 years that I have been repairing auto mobiles, I have never once put refrigerant into a system without first evacuating it very well. I do have an evacuation pump that pulls down to 29-30 inches and does a great job removing air and boiling out moisture. I also have flushing equipment, which I have used to do the job right when people fill their system with the wrong oil to try to make refrigerants work in there that the system was not intended for. I have also repaired delco a-6 compressors and still own the tools to fix them.............they are for sale if you want them. This is to TRB, trust me I have more experience at this than "a few weekends in the garage" ..........you likely have much more experience than I do at this, since I gave up as a professional mechanic a long time ago, but that statement does not describe me. I have been to General Motors training for a/c repair, among a few others, including Goodyear and Firestone school. I have even rebuilt a few transmissions, and have been to school for that. I have become convinced that no matter what I say here I will be shot down for saying it................no different than when I argued with other mechanics about replacing load carrying ball joints.........some play within specifications is normal............just b/c one shows a little looseness is not grounds to replace them. I once quit a good position at a local muffler shop over that issue.........replacing un-needed parts is dishonest and criminal. I can take the heat, opinions are like rectal holes, everyone has one. Some of you guys are so big headed and opinionated about your way of doing something it makes the entire automotive repair field a hostile envirnment to work in and chases away otherwise brilliant and hard working people with new ideas............this thread proves that. I don't want the last word here, but as far as I am concerned, I have defended my position and I am finished.
I have been out for awhile because it's obvious that no one wants to do their homework which might take a little effort on their part. I'll try to make this as simple as possible. Does any one have a dictionary? Fluorine- A pale greenish yellow, pungent, corrosive, and extremely reactive gaseous element. HC stands for hydrocarbon. HFC stands for hydrofluorocarbon. Why would anyone want to add fluorine to any thing. HFCs are incompatible with aluminum. They produce a strong chemical reaction. I'm sure when the chemical companies were looking for a replacement for R12 they asked themselves what does the industry want? Something that will make money for them. 20 years ago anyone that had worked on a car to any degree knew how to go down to the local parts store and buy a can tap and a can of R12 to make their a/c work again. This was not putting any money in the manufacturers pocket. This had to stop. Lets outlaw R12. Good thinking because we can control what people buy. Next we need to destroy the a/c systems so they will have to come to us to buy the new parts, but it has to last until it's out of warrenty so it won't cost us anything. Okay 134a is the ticket. The pumps will last 700 hours with very little problems. Now without that much trouble on their part the repair bill for an a/c system went from probably less than $100.00 to over $1000.00. Good thinking if you are in the repair business. Make more money. The problem now is how do we shut up these people who know about hydrocarbons. We try to make it look like it is illegal. Sure we can't stop them from buying it, but we will make them think they can't use it. We can send out our factory Reps to scare everyone because we are paying them anyway. We can rig a few videos and not put our name on them so they cannot be traced back to us. What about the percentage of people of people who will die from the effects of 134a? We can't be to concerned about them. We can cover that with our lawyers because we have to pay them anyway. In my opinion this is their story and they are sticking to it. Does anyone think for themselves anymore? Sorry, I guess not. The sad thing is that many people know what I'm saying is true, but if they admit it they would have to admit that they were wrong. That they have been part of the problem. I don't expect that to happen. Within the next 30 days I expect to have my new website up and running www.deadly134a.com. The name has already been reserved and I am putting all the documetation together so I won't have to do all this writing but once. Personally I never wanted to get into the refrigerant business all I ever wanted to do was stay a tool man for the rest of my life. Our desires are not always what we get.
My point is ,that although you may pull a good vacuum, you are also selling this stuff to DIY mechanics, you have stated that to use this stuff you do not need to have a certificate, so that the guy that you are selling to does not even have the basic info that you would need to gain this qualification. The chances are that they will not have a vacuum pump, and will charge straight into the system with whatever may be in there, refrigerant or air. I'm still waiting for the name of the German car manufacturer who uses Duracool Karl
Charles, do you believe a recharge is a repair? I believe that somewhere in the neighborhood of 9 out of every 10 cars a recharge does not "fix" the problem. The problem I have is having to buy test equipment to check for contaminated refrigerants, especially sealants. Then telling a customer, usually a new customer there is nothing I can do for them. Maybe the tool companies are behind it all. Have the shop buy more tools. Sell them new ones when sealer ruins the one you just sold him. I really do not give a crap who is to blame. If a DIY guy can get away with it I guess I can live with it. After all it's his car. As far as someone getting paid to work on someone elses car I feel we all should have to follow the laws. Apparently the law allows replacing R134 with HC refrigerants. But HC refrigerants are against the law in the state I do business. Apparently adding HCs to a R12 system is illegal. A favorite saying from my parents "Two wrongs do not make a right". John 2003 Chevy avalance 31,000 miles and 843 hours on the clock. R134 AC is so cold that I find my self trying to turn it down, even when it is on LOW.
OK lets deal with some of your issues. Corrosion Why is it that in EVERY corrosion failure that I have had to repair the corrosion clearly starts on the outside of the aluminium pipe, andthen passes through the metal to the inside. 99% of these faults are caused by corrosion at the interface between the aluminium and the steel clip that is used to retain it, the manufacturers already have a means of limiting component life without having to resort to top secret,evil, nasty, heart exploding refrigerants (I guess that everyone who uses R134a must look like ailien has just popped out of their shirts) I can send you a few boxes of biological soap powder if you like. The US must look like an explosion in a black pudding factory, I'm quite squeamish, so I guess that I shall have to find a direct flight to Mexico next year. R134a killing people as they drive I shall repeat an earlier statement that these people most likely think that exercise is something that is done to ghosts, they were fat and unhealthy,because they drove everywhere shoveling high fat, high cholesterol foods in to their faces, this is why their hearts gave out, stop trying to shift the blame from the individual on to companies who produce refrigerants. Death happens, if you dont like it, write to the Pope and try to claim on the warranty. I find it hard to believe that any sane person could rant about conspiracies over such things, but if it makes you feel happy... Please let us know when you intend to visit planet Earth, and we shall arrange for you to be greeted by Elvis, who now drives a bus in Sheffield, JFK who faked the whole thing, just for a laugh and all of the ailiens who live in area 51 Your sales ploy is cynical and dangerous
It is obvious that I have struck a nerve. You guys did not do your home work before you started changing cars over to 134a. You boughjt the first thing that the salesman told you that was legal. I would like to think that you are well qualified mechchanics, but I question my thoughts. You are gullible. I put HC12a in my own vehicle before I ever sold it to a customer. The EPA only tests about 1 product out of 100 by their own admission. 134a is not efficient. It is extremmely corrosive. It is extremely toxic. It is nonflammable by the UL standards, but it is combustible by their own admission. I have never told anyone that I know of that HC12a was not flammable. HC12a is a class 2 flammable. Hairspray is a class 4 flammable. You would like to make people think that our product is dangerous compared to 134a. Gary Lindgren [who holds the patent] submitted to the EPA last August that HC12a is in 3 to 5 million cars throughout the US since 1994 and not 1 incidence of accident or injury. He has produced 1 million gallons of the refrigerant since 1994. I think he has a good track record. Wise men admit their faults, fools never do.
What you seem to miss as do most HC proponents is its illegal to use HCs in US vehicles that had R12 designed systems. That is the point I have made because you and your buddy posted wrong and incorrect information. The website link provided flat states the product you are pushing is a direct R12 replacement. That is another illegal statement and someone needed to point this out to the readers of this forum. You can try and use all the BS scare tactics or spin you want! Its nothing new we in the industry have not seen over and over. If your product was so great and accepted why was it not presented or displayed at the last MACS convention? MACS are a world wide organization so the market share surely would have been available for such a great product, even with the US ban! What did Green Peace forget to purchase a booth? Red Tek from Canada was there but they were not pushing their product for US usage By the way you really have not seen any of the posters here bringing up R134a. You did to justify your comments. What should be addressed and brought to the attention of this site owner is the posting dangerous information for the readers of this forum by nailhead and yourself. And just so you get this straight. If or when a HC product becomes a legal US refrigerant for automotive use I will than work within the guidelines set by the industry for the use of such product. I think we all are waiting for the documentation that all German made vehicles are now leaving the assembly line with Duracool 12a? Was that a lie or do either of you really have the proof that this is true? Im sure the stock holders of BMW & Mercedes would be interested in that information! If the usage numbers you claim are correct we in the industry would see a lot more US vehicles contaminated with HC refrigerants. We dont so I doubt there is much creditability to those figures also. Mr. Fox we have a test chamber which duplicates an automotive a/c system. We have done lots of research on refrigerants since R134a came into play. 2 years back we ran an alt test on many of the popular alternative refrigerants. When locating an HC for this test one manufacture bailed on supplying a product. Another stated we had to meet them in a fast food joint to purchase the product. Does this sound like a product that is safe and legal? Any way this is getting long and old and Im sure not going or trying to change your opinions. For anyone wanting to see some other alternative test results here is a link. http://www.ackits.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=20&threadid=9171
When you say "you guys" I imagine you are speaking of the Automotive Ac industry?? If so, how about we use R134a to retrofit, since that is what "ALL NEW CARS" come with from the factory in the US since 1994??? How about we buy the equipment for Durocool, and autofrost, and es12, and GHX and the list goes on...Could you please tell me why we should do that?? In simple terms please, as we are gullable and may not understand your logic to have ten to twenty different recovery machines in our shops to please allthe different refigerant makers that ALL claim to be the best....Hell, some shops would have no room left over for cars!! Durocool will work, as will es13 greenchill, autofrost etc etc...But don't you think the professional ac repair shop should stick to a standard? Even if as you say, its the will of the EPA and "big business" Or should we JUST listen to you and the inventor of durocool only?? Who the hell are you people??? Over the years we read threads of guys telling other guys to mix in propane with the canned lightning, and add butane to make it better etc..Sorry, that is dangerous, and may not be your fault, but why should the layman be put thru "tweaking" your refrigerant in such a dangerous manner..You talk about the dangers of R134a, well First I question that five million cars in the US have durocool in them, and secondly if that were true, fifty times more have R134a...Now that should tell you something...As usual, you're beating a dead horse with this garbage..If it's your product, then YOU get the automakes to use it, and then we will service it..Until then, it's just another "magic bullet" in a can..I've even heard guys say they get 15 degree vent temps..But when asked why the water doesn't freeze on the evaporator, they don't answer. Just like the guy who STILL hasn't answered which German car company uses Durocool...Can't answer because none do!!..So I think the guys being brainwashed use blends of all kinds, not just HC's...
If you will read through my posts you will realise that I did not say that a german carmaker uses our product. There are german manufacturers that use hydrocarbons in refrigerantors for home use. Your posts make it seem that you are offended by the truth. 134a was deemed as a intermediate refrigerant until something esle could be found. Check your memory from your old refrigerant classes. I've been around for a long time. What is the next one on the list. I've told already you that hydrocarbons do not have to be reclaimed if they are called hydrocarbons. I can see that I'm wasting my time talking to people that post on the internet because they don't want to talk about reason. If you did, you would have called on my 800 line by now. People that post on the internet seem to want to remain anonomous. My phone number is the same as before 866-865-6233. Who do you think funds MACS? It is probably the same people who promote 134a. Can you prove otherwise? I would be glad to listen. I don't know who reads this thread, but I do know that no one has tried to prove my theories wrong and I live less than 5 miles from a Dupont plant. Nailhead posted the placard that I have sent out all over the country for the last 5 years. Why hasn't Dupont responded for 5 years. Do they know something that you don't? You tell me. As my father would have said ,You protest to much, when you are trying to hide something. Like I said earlier many people know that I am telling the truth, but they cannot benefit from the truth. I feel like this country has sold it's soul for 30 pieces of silver.
TBR Did you contact the manufacturer about testing their product? Please contact Northcutt Inc. in Wichita KS I feel certain they would be glad to accomodate you. If they won't, I will. Their number is 800-279-3540. The general manager is Bob Small his number is 208-777-9888. The tech's number is 780-439-1407 his name is Randy Johnston. If you would like to contact me my number is 866-865-6233.
It's 110 here in Arizona so testing will have to wait until next winter. End of this month the ASE is here in Arizona going over all the new technologies and refrigerants, will see how much HC discussions there are. Charles I don't think I have ever posted as anonymous and the web address surly points anyone to contact numbers if they care to look. So i'm not hiding behind a keyboard having fun trying to piss you off. I truly feel the information provided was incorrect and dangerous! I have stated my points which is backed by the industry, EPA and MACS. Do I think these organizations are prefect? No not by any means but its better than some gunslinger coming to town pushing BS. The should have control R12 better and never created this mess to begin with.
People who post on the internet, but who are not willing to talk to a real person on the telephone, I have no use for. If you have some real issues with the product I sell. Please call. A/C is a luxury that we cannot all afford, but we need to know that is safe. Hyrodrocarbons are not the safest products that ever existed, but I believe they are far above what we have been offered by the chemical companies.
Tim I'm not very good on the internet, but I would appreciate it if you would send me your phone number. My e=mail address is charles@foxtoolsupply.com.
The reason i have been away is because I was away today and have just returned. The German manufacturer I do not know............I quoted the magazine article that I had posted earlier. The reason it is legal over there is because the German government is not influenced by Dupont or the US government. As I stated before, my purpose for posting about this product was to help my fellow Buick brothers who have found themselves in the same position I am in now that my private stock of R-12 has run dry. We are on the outside looking in to a glass house where you professionals live. Many of us can not afford to pay the high price the EPA has caused us to pay for a/c in their interest to decieve the american people with their bureaucratic tactics. I like it here on the outside much better. Just b/c I am not licensed does not mean I am unqualified to recommend a product that works beyond my expectations in vehicles that are from my era that I know very well. Any toxic product that requires extensive modification (134) in order to work when a safe alternate organic product (Duracool HC-12a) is available just does not make sense to me. :bglasses:
Charlie is a great person to talk to, and is very knowlegable. He is not the fanatic people have made him out to be. If you give him a chance with an open mind you will see that he makes some very good points. :bglasses:
