Incredible....A 1970 Buick GS Stage 1 appraised at $1,850,000

No, Mike. Really. Tell us what you realy feel. :beer

Sounds about right to me also.

 

X5. How smart do you have to be to leave 52.5K on the table from one auction to the next? Greed plain and simple. :TU:

 

x6. Its like Ebay..shill bidding happens all the time. I have friends that that tell me they shill bid all the time using multiple user accounts.

 

Mike,
While I am not disagreeing with what you say in general about how cars get pumped up at auctions (especially when they are below the reserve), I was wondering if have any specific facts about the car in question or are just letting out hot air?

I ask because as it relates to the this car, it is contrary to what the previous owner (JC) has said. He he has indicated that in did in fact sell in September to the new owner (who has it currently listed on ebay). Also, if you notice, the appraisal is several years old.

Read all about it here:

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=235817&page=2

 

The car looks nice but not 1.8 nice. Did you see the carpeting around the center console. It looks like it came from JC Whitney. It wasn't even formed well around the center hump. I would have expected a GSX to go up that high in price but not just a GS. One mirror? 50 grand might be more like the price...maybe...

 

I am not an appraiser and I don't know if anyone that replied is but before everyone starts throwing stones I believe the appraiser is a well known and respected board member that owns some rare Buicks. I am sure that he could defend his appraisal at the time it was written.

 

Having been to numerous auctions over the years both here on the Peninsula and in AZ,I can plainly state I wouldn't trust one of them as far as I could throw them...especially Russo & Steele.

 

"It belongs in a museum!"

 

Chris, this car was for sale twice at Mecum, as I mentioned above.

- May 2011 - No sale at $125K.
- September 2011 - No sale at $72K.

It's a really cool car, but that appraisal is ridiculous. It's nothing more than a vein attempt at boosting the perceived value. Marking something up just to mark it down is not illegal, but it's unethical. Over the past 10 years, I've watched this happen over and over again, and these guys use the same formula every time. And unfortunately, it works.

They buy a rare car for say $50K. They run it through auction, hoping to get $70K, but it falls way short. They run it through a televised auction, it falls short again. So they put it on E-Bay, and have all their inner circle, unethical buddies run the price up to $250K. Of course, it doesn't sell, but the web gets chattering, "Did you see a 19XX Thiggamabob is worth $250K???"

Now the wheels get going. They run it on E-Bay a second time, same procedure as before, and it hits $225K. Hmmm..now people are starting to wonder if the car is really worth $200K.

Now the owner contacts the televised auction guys again. They want to run the car across the block, run the price up, get some exposure. Mecum or Barrett-Jackson (which now allows Reserve Auctions) allows the owner to do this, for a fee of say $1000. That's peanuts considering how much money the owner (and the auction house) may make later. The car hits the block, shill bidding all over, and it stops at $200K.

Wait a couple months, then run it across the auction block again. With bids over $200K now for several months, legitimate bidders begin to bid the car up. It sells for $85K, and the new owner is thrilled. He bought a $200K car for $85K. The auction house gets their commission, and the seller made $30K more than he could have a few months ago.

It's called boosting, and it's been done in the art world for a hundred years. These same tactics came to the Musclecar world back when the prices started going up. I just really hate all the dishonesty and unethical behavior in this market now. The prices were SO over-inflated, it's no wonder these high-end cars have lost so much value, and why resto shops go to such great lengths to cobble up a car from 4 donor cars. It's all about money.

And unfortunately, the guys that are in on these schemes, and the guys with large car collections, have a vested interest in keeping prices high, so they try to deny this happens.

:Comp:

 

I have seen cases of price boosting as you have described, it happens all the time.

But my question relates to that happening right now with this car and your above statement that the car didn't sell at mecum in September.

Their website says it sold at $72,500 no reserve. The previous owner in the thread I quoted earlier says it sold. The new owner that has it on ebay is certainly acting as if he bought it at Mecum and is now trying to sell it for more.

But you are saying that all of that is a sham and in fact the car didn't sell. That is why I am asking if you have first hand knowledge of this, since you are essentially calling the previous owner ("collector") and Mecum's liars?????

 

Chris, I'm sorry, yes, it did sell for $72K at Mecum. I was referring to the $125K earlier that it didn't sell for. I got wrapped up in the stories talking about the phony auctions for the Pontiacs. I apologize for misstating that. My original point was that the car was a no sale at $125K, then a desperation sell for $72K. I got sidetracked talking about the auction shenanigans.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue. :laugh:

On the topic of auction houses, yes, they're all in the whole game, as long as you're in that upper crust car collector level. There was a ex-Reggie Jackson 69 ZL-1 Camaro that went through this whole shill bidding process, on national TV, and Reggie Jackson was involved. Bidding stopped well short of the mark, but they wouldn't get the car off stage. Seconds turned into minutes. On camera, Reggie was seen making motions to the auctioneer to boost the price. Suddenly there was flurry of bids, adding another $100K to the car. And it didn't actually sell, even though they hammered it down. This was Reggie's attempt at keeping prices high for these cars, as he has quite a few COPO's and other rare Chevys to protect.

When you're at these auctions in person, I'm amazed how many times they say a car was sold, they hammer it down, then you walk outside and it's in the car corral still for sale. And it's not just 1 or 2 cars that this happens to, but dozens and dozens. Example : We saw a 79 Trans Am 10th Anniversary that sold for $33K at Mecum, and a few minutes later, we took a break, walked outside, and there it was in the car corral. I asked the owner (standing by the car) if he was the new owner. He wasn't, he's the old owner, the car was still for sale. What happened? He said it didn't meet his reserve, he wanted more. But...how was it hammered down and sold? He shrugged his shoulders and said, "Yeah, that's what they do here." He had to tell me the truth, because he didn't know if I was interested in buying his car right there. He said he's had about 20 cars go through Mecum over the past couple years (he was a dealer). You can buy you're own car back at these auctions. The cost? The price of registration. Many times they wave the auction house fees if you buy you're own car back, because it's advertising (and makes for great TV).

I watched as a 1963 Dodge 413 went across the block, bidding shot to $800K. We were looking around to see the bidders. No one in sight on this one. They then announced the car didn't meet reserve. A couple gentleman next to us (in their 60's) said these next few Mopars should do the same. Sure enough, a few early Hemi cars went across the block, all bid over $500K, none met reserve. Still no bidders in sight. These guys laughed and said, "Claude Raines was bidding again" (he played the Invisible Man in the original movie).

Here's another scheme that was going on a few years ago. Remember Peter Klute from Dream Car Garage? He bought a rare 1970 GTO Judge RAIV convertible for $400K (from a museum). He puts it on his TV show, shows it off, then makes a comment that the car is worth "a cool million". He never mentioned that it was his own car. There's something wrong with that. It's unethical.

WAY too shady of dealings at these events. It's driven by money, and these guys are, in every sense of the word, used car salesmen. They just glorify it with the word "classic" or "Musclecar".

I prefer to stay in the private sales area. Buying from an auction house is as shaky as buying a car off E-Bay.

Anyway, going from a sale of $72K for this Buick, to referencing an appraisal for $1.8 million, is a bit of a stretch.

There was a Diplomat Blue 1970 4-speed GS Stage 1 (all original) that sold at Mecum last year. I was outbid, and it killed me. I loved that car!!

 

I think this is the same car which sold at the Mecum auction in St. Charles for $72,000.

http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=CH0911-116170

Tony Saggese

 

:gp:

 

As an appraiser, I do take offense to the idea that we just pull whatever numbers we want out of the sky. When I do a car appraisal, I spend a lot of time going through auction results and any posted sales results for the particular car I'm doing. The owner does not know the final figure until he sees my report, and in all cases I will not discuss "what he wants to see as a number" with him. I don't even want to know what he paid for the car. We here in Canada are not as regulated as you are in the US when it comes to appraisals, but even here when we do an appraisal it has to be justified. It's a very fine line we have to walk, because if I quote a price and the item for what ever reason doesn't attain it, I could be held liable for the difference. (depends how the contract was written)

That said, I'd still love to see that appraisal report, and see what the appraiser did to justify that figure. It does seem awfully high. And yes, I guess there are still a few shady appraisers out there, but they usually don't last long before they either get sued or indicted for fraud.

As for auction house performances, yeah, I learned a long time ago that these people sometimes skirt the law. I once had an electrician who worked for me during one shutdown who said that shilling was his winter job. He gave me a lot of insight to the whole racket, much of it similar to what was posted above.

Truth is, anything in the collector market, be it cars, coins, art or anything else is subject to this kind of fraud, and it's been happening since the Crusaders were paying for relics of the True Cross.

 

Buick Guys:

Do any of you think it's worth as much as the appraisal?

 

NO !! That car is rare and is unique but is not worth 1.8 million today. It is difficult to value something that is a one off piece and impossible to replace the pedigree it has.
But if value transferred value was recently $73,000 and think it is time for a new appraisal.

I sure there is guys out there with Hemi non-Rag E-Bodys that have 7 year old appraisals in the 7 figure range. Try and get that sale value now.
It's not happening.....

Dave

 

Hemi E-body ragtops still top a million easy.

 

Marc, as I stated before, there are a lot of honest people in this business, but unfortunately, they are falling by the wayside. This economy, and demand for high end Musclecars, has fallen. Those with vested interests in keeping prices high (flippers, and those with multi-car collections) are in panic mode now.

Where on EARTH did this appraiser get their $1.85 million figure from? Based on the sale of a couple unique concept cars, or a few GM Motorama show cars, that sold in 2005? uzzled: Yes, someone should contact the appraiser, and find out what they were smoking. I also wonder what the car is insured for. Premiums on $1.85 million can't be cheap.

Beautiful car though, stunning interior. But asking $299K, when it just sold for $72K, and appraised at $1.85 million, just don't make any sense. Reminds me of those jewelry commercials I hear on the radio all the time. Their diamonds are guaranteed to appraise for double the sale price. In fine print, they say they won't refund the appraisal price. That's not saying much for the validity of that appraisal....

 

For 1.8 Million?? Was their several bars of gold stashed in the trunk when it was appraiseduzzled:

 

I tend to think he'd have a hard time justifying that appraisal. The car, while unique, isn't that far off the main production variants. Sure, I've never seen an interior like that, but that and some seemingly shaky provenance of being the #2 car just don't cut it. One of things the appraiser has to take into consideration is the fact that to the mainline car collector most Buicks just aren't that interesting. (Poor fools, don't know what they're missing:laugh: ) So where he gets this figure from is cause for some concern, because no one in their right mind would ever pay that. I could see it being insured for that amount, just because the car is in excellent shape and is in a sense "priceless". But lesson #1 in appraisals is one can't put a price on sentimentality or hype; - it's just wrong and it's unquantifiable because somethings mean different things to different people.

Even 4-5 years ago, there was no way this car was ever worth that price except to the guy who drove it and loved it.

And yes, it's a shame that the collector car market is becoming a racket on the top end; it makes the rest of us who enjoy the hobby look like a bunch of shysters. But...money corrupts...