Blah blah blah. 7/16" is good enough for stock. Sorry this bugs you. Holding any engine to 6000 RPM isn't a good idea without oiling mods. So what was your point again, or was there one that we all already didn't know? ...and keep your perverted fantasies about me being a chick to yourself, sicko.
Then why do you call it a small safety margin? Which is it? 30% 50% 1000%, is all fine and dandy. Your racing engines you build (and your reputation) will surely be much safer with it. I do not think it's needed for engines seeing less than 5500 RPM, boosted applications, or otherwise super high compression builds putting extra strain on the oiling system's abilities to do its factory engineered purpose. Of course, I will always advocate the use of TA's front grooved cam bearing and booster plate, and some oiling massaging techniques here and there, whatever tickles your fancy to get you the 10PSI/1000 (or thereabouts, give or take a PSI or two). No engines were harmed in this demonstration.
I see you're shamelessly taking credit for all this debating, when we all know it was ME who started this whole fiasco! hahaha I even got Derek to come out of the closet...that was an unexpected twist of events!
I was going to let it drop but I think you may have to prove I ever said that. I get it though. You're doing your best to defend an indefensible position and running out of options so you start twisting words and making illogical attacks. Don't worry, I don't really want to push you into a corner and I'll let up on you. You are free to believe in anything you like no matter what it is. I think the lottery fairy would be a fun thing to believe in but I'm like the guy in the joke where God told him, "Look, you've got to buy a ticket!" Clearly you'd like to believe the Buick engineers were infallable even though we know sometimes they were not. I get that. But you do others a disservice telling them that all will be blue skies when it isn't necessarily the case, and we already know our intrepid OP has to open up his bearing clearances due to unavoidable circumstance. But if you guys insist on living on the razor's edge with these engines, far be it from me to say you can't. Sure, you may just get lucky and never have a rebuilt engine fail. Maybe. I recommend you forget about oil pressure gages though. Put in an idiot light like the factory used. Anything else will just make you uncomfortable every time you look at it. Jim
Taking no credit for anything...I enjoy humor opportunities. It can be tough to find clean enough ones to use here
Please forgive me. I've just gotta say that we're....... "Pissin' in the wind, bettin' on a losing friend Doin' all the things, we said we'd never do again... And we're pissin' in the wind, and it's blowing on all our friends We're gonna sit and grin and tell our grandchildren" Hehe. Bye now. Jim
Come on now Jim, don't digress to the insults that others have in the past. No attacks were made by me on you, much less illogical ones. If anyone is being attacked here, it's me. (as usual) This post of yours looks much like an attempt at distraction. My clams are much easier to prove than yours, so you're making this too easy. You did in fact say that, and on more than one occasion. Maybe I should have highlighted/bold the text that I quoted earlier when making that statement? You have contradicted yourself all throughout this entire thread, going back and forth from 'if it's got good enough oil pressure, it'll be ok' to 'you have to do all the mods or your're only half-assing it and your engine will blow up because the design of the oiling system is so terrible', etc., to 'anyone can trash a block with these mods if done incorrectly' to 'ah, you can't really go wrong by doing it', and list goes on and on and on. (((here is the actual quote, one among MANY, and I don't have all the time to compose a huge post that lists all the contradictions: "Anybody can scrap a block attempting to drill out the suction galley. It isn't hard to do, even with a 1/2" bit. In fact it is difficult to get the hole started so that it stays perfectly centered and much easier to have it walk off to one side. If it does and you keep right on drilling it can break through. With a 5/8" bit the chance is much greater."))) You bounce around so much that it almost looks like you don't even completely believe half of what you say, but you have to go back to stand behind it almost as if you're trying to convince yourself and others that the work you do is worthwhile. Is it? Of course it is. On racing engines. We're all in agreement on that. Is it 'required' on stockish type builds? Nope. Not even close. How do we know this? Because even after all the improvements, it's still not a day and night difference. All anyone has to do is go back through and read. You don't have to believe me, all you have to do is do some reading outside of this thread pertaining to this subject. I don't need to build 10,000 engines and make a life-long comparison between them all and draw conclusions based on failure/success rates that would be difficult to trace conclusively back to the source of failure or success. All my points are quite valid....and many of yours are too, other than the hyperbole and overstressing the importance of enlargement of oil passages on stock engines. You accuse me of making mountains out of molehills, when you are guilty of the very same thing, and even moreso. Let's see here... Well, there's proof #1. No one will be 'running close to the edge', no more so than the gains you're seeing from all this extra work using the exact same oiling system you say is so bad. Here's another one. There's more if someone were inclined to read back through. I do not tell lies and I'm not the one exaggerating here. The proof is easily seen by anyone with an above 3rd grade reading comprehension level. (this is a rhetorical statement, not an attack on anyone)
It's almost humorously ironic that this very statement poignantly describes exactly what is happening here, but the real twist is that it is not happening to me. I have not yet begun to tap into the reserves of options that are at my intellectual disposal. Sometimes we can see something happening within ourselves and then we try to project that onto others in a mirror image. It's a self-defense mechanism to try and 'push away' something that is realized within the self onto others. We can tend to despise in others what we see in ourselves. Here is a rabbit hole that we can freely traverse, if you feel so inclined. But don't worry, I was willing to let up on you several posts ago when I said "just let the damn thing be already", but you insisted on keeping it going. Much truth can be said in jest, and I enjoy rhetorical humor as much as the next person (perhaps moreso), so please carry on.
OK, how about this angle... Let's see how this logic holds up to scrutiny. Time on the assembly line is quite precious, especially if more than one thing can't be done at a time or if any operation holds up anything else. A drill bit is limited by SFM and feed rate balanced with the need to make sure it's replacement doesn't hold up the machining line's process. (time spent drilling and it's wearing out, replacement) A six inch hole takes longer to drill than some other operations, and 'might' have to be done at a point in which it's time is critically competing with other parts of the line. A conservatively drilled 12" hole takes almost 2 minutes longer to drill from 7/16 to 5/8". As already mentioned...the use of a smaller bit was possibly a calculated risk, with the time period AFTER warranty as the amount of margin being used up [planned obsolescence factored in there too?] If the passage was opened up in later years simultaneous with the power level, the gear ratios and the speed limit all being lowered...it would suggest that it were enlarged because of either losing engines under warranty costing more than the savings on the line and/or the public opinion of the brand affecting sales due to failures. None of these I am qualified to comment from on Buick's behalf. In other companies...it was a relatively easy decision to make, without any studies required. There's already prior history to borrow from. We all know how accountants and executives weigh in against engineers. I hope this doesn't ruffle any feathers. Have I negated many arguments with this?
Continuous improvement... With modern tooling, machines and processes...it's still commonplace to evaluate any high part count operation with a team of employees from strategic positions. With tool companies donating the latest and greatest...a week spent brainstorming to shave 30 seconds from an operation can equal $100k in a year or more (much). Suddenly the engineer's opinion of 'good enough' fits. Why on earth would they spend more time drilling a hole in later years? (if they did)
The silly part is that there are several points of view that are all truthful and valid to people's experiences. So, if one ignores the argumentative aspects and looks at the technical contributions..it's kind of a gold mine. Confidentiality agreements likely prevent company specific information to truly set the record straight. I'd rather filter out some slightly abrasive banter and ignore the ridiculous personal jabs and try to get an understanding of why people are so passionately expressing their views. It takes a certain boldness and confidence to jump into the pit and think there won't be some self sacrifice. This is not often found outside the extreme ego normally associated with cognitive dissonance or distortions. Everybody benefits from it.
Yep, that settles it, we are all crazy. And Gary, you can quote me on that, even though you know full well it isn't what I really mean... Or is it? Jim
I was thinking about posting something like this last night at work while my mind drifted to this conversation. We're all friends here just having some friendly debating, no harm is being done to each other or to the engines (ha). Many times here on this website, good information comes out of the woodwork in unexpected places and times, and I value everyone's (valid) point of view. In closing, I'd like to add a minor concession on my behalf for the sake of collaboration toward a common and safe goal, and that is to follow any advice a professional offers up, especially when there are a few of them singing the same tune. I am not a professional, so my opinion has less weight. This is not an insult to me, my knowledge, experience or my ideas, but rather a 'better safe than sorry' approach and I would recommend any who are reading to follow this advice. It was a pleasure discussing this topic with you all.
Hi all!! long time no see...... i been following the discussion, but really didn't have much to add to it, so just kept quiet. anyway, will be ordering the parts today. I know we discussed the "get the shells, measure it, then ground the crank"...... couldn't be bothered. Machine shop ground 10 thous off the original size, so I'll just need to order 10thou oversized bearings. it's not going to be a race engine, it's not going to be an engine to last 20k miles.... this will do it for the kind of driving I do and for the results I want and how quick I have to be to save over 1k dollars. so... parts list! TA1436 -----------TA Valve springs for 212 cam 75 use old ones-------TA Spring retainers 0 FEL-MS96006----Summit Valley Pan 20.97 TA_1521-----------TA Timing gear stock replacement 39.95 CCA-504-16-------Summit Valve seals 14.97 TA212-350--------TA 212-350 cam 185 TA1406------------TA Hydraulic lifters 68-69 79 TA1419A-----------TA Stock pushrods ?? CONFIRM with TA 49 TA1507------------TA oil pump rebuild kit 29.95 TA1502------------TA oil pressure regulator 19.95 TA1510------------TA booster plate 25.95 TA1704------------TA oil pump shim kit 20.59 TA1550------------TA .010 Main bearings 89.95 TA1540------------TA .010 Rod Bearings 65 TA1559------------TA High Perf cam bearing kit 74.75 TA1705------------TA full gasket set with neoprene 59.95 TA1520D----------TA 5/8 oil pickup tube 29 TA1515------------TA Rear Main seal 16.95 895.93 almost 900 worth of it. does it look good? don't think I'm missing anything? only have one shot at this.
Are you going to get piston rings? Should be able to get them local. Timing gear set is same as early rover which should be available local also. I would think. Probably would do fine with just replacing the front cam bearing.
Order both sets of bearings in case it measures up poorly anyways. It bothers me to see the customer justify their hastiness and potential mess-up with a statement like "it's not going to be a race engine". I would expect them to pay for the next grind when it isn't perfect at mock up. Get it in writing. Best of luck.
