Oh and I'm on facebook with pictures of myself. Same name, my real name (Gary Farmer). There's a few Gary Farmer's on there, so look up the one in Clarksville, TN. I have an older pic of me on my account, the long-haired hippy lookin' dude. It would be quite difficult for me to pass off as a female, even with the long hair. lol The beard and muscles are a dead giveaway there's more going on downstairs than estrogen. haha I'm not hiding a thing. This is the real me, and always has been. My opinions are my own, like it or dislike it, I'm just another voice in the crowd.
There's more than a few Gary, and they don't always lists the locations. Can you narrow that down a little? Don't see any long haired hippy like dudes.
what do you mean saved a lot of talking? I still need to get the cam bearings out and will clean it all up then. for now I just had to do something to the whole thing to give me motivation to keep going till the parts get here
Derek and I go back a long way. We end up cluttering up threads. Sorry. I guess it goes back to my original statement back when I said I was bowing out because I could foresee the upcoming bantering, since it seems to be the modus operendi. We do much better than we used to though, so I guess progress is progress, eh? Check out the views on this thread though--you're getting tons of attention! That can't be all bad. Lots of discussion about oiling mods n stuff that I'll wager a lot of people didn't know about. Interactive education at its finest, better than a Buick book!
I'll say one thing, you guys certainly are entertaining, So... no I haven't scrapped a block. I came close but was able to save it. Now I consider myself a pretty good machinist and a fair hand with a drill. I began the operation with the 9/16" long drill I was going to use with the block on an engine stand and it seemed ok at first, but OK, I was taking chances there. About 3" in I could see the hole going off to the side enough that it was definitely going to be a big problem, so I stopped right there and took the time to made a "corrector" type piloted bit that could bring the hole back to the original centerline. That's kind of a creative endeavor all it's own, with unusually short flutes, an undersized shank, and some more tricky work on the pilot. But I saved the block. The hole has a curve to it but so what? Now I see no reason why Derek's method of short drilling progressively larger and then going full size with the long bit shouldn't work just fine and be a reliable method. A piloted bit is 100% reliable, and there is plenty of meat to go to 5/8" that way. I'll admit, I did once have a block that had a pinhole in one of the oil galleys from the factory. It was on the pressure side and I guess that block must have had chronic low oil pressure. Conceivably then you could have that happen on the suction galley from a casting flaw. But if you did somehow happen to screw it up you could just grab a short piece of copper water line and sleeve it, and still be better off than before. So I really don't understand the paranoia about drilling the block, but some people just can't bear to do anything different than the way the factory did it, since it is so obvious that the factory engineers were all-seeing and all-knowing. Too bad you don't have all the resources to perfectly duplicate their manufacturing results, we must muddle through somehow as best we can. Speaking of which, last week I broke two rods. They were factory cast 340 rods and they just snapped right off. Forged would never have done that. Of course, they weren't in an engine at the time... But back to why a bigger suction journal is better. You do realize do you not, that all you have to push the oil through the suction passages all the way to the pump is atmospheric pressure don't you? How could it possibly be otherwise? The most pressure differential you will ever have there is 16psi and that's pushing it. That would be if you were able to generate a perfect vacuum at the pump and you never will. What other force could possible be there to help? There is none. So do yourself a flavor. Put a 15psi regulator on your water hose and see how much water it can push through those passages from the pickup all the way to the pump and tell me if you think that's enough for your engine. If you're happy I'm happy but I'm building no engines for you. Why do you think all hydraulic systems have a suction line that is so much larger than the discharge anyway? Because they don't need it? How would that ever make sense? Jim
(I guess Derek's distraction tactic worked well enough, since points and questions I posed earlier still remain unaddressed) Well, that certainly sounds easy enough for the do-it-yourself'er. Still a risk though, as you (and others) say. If professional engine builders can still 'almost' break through, I certainly have to recant my previous suggestion that amateurs try this. Anecdotal and incidental circumstances will always arise no matter which design you're working with. I find it rather funny that I'm the one who's being insinuated as being the paranoid one here. Engine builders with money to make insist on doing 'necessary' mods saying factory stuff is junk without their magic recipes, vs a guy who says it's not needed on mild setups (and it isn't. you can argue this all day and all night and from different sources, so it's not just me). I'm not sure why you insist on still working with the Buick platform if it's so terrible? You're talking what, a 10%-15% increase in oil volume, and that's going to make or break the whole design? Doesn't sound like much more than factory capability to me. If it's a bad design before the oil passage enlargement, it's still a bad design afterwards. This isn't a day to night transformation. So why not ditch the entire oiling system and use an external system. It would be much easier to cool then too and you could mix and match the volume and pressure needed for whatever you intended to build the engine for. Chevy uses a nice oiling system. Cheaper too. What was it you were saying about sticking with factory-envisioned platforms? Iron thickness varies with each casting (it's why everyone says to sonic test above certain overbores on the cylinders), so why would a standard approach drilling on every block be any different? You're certainly rolling the dice drilling it to 5/8", and that's on a perfectly aligned and thick block, which leaves the smaller increments above 7/16, which are so small as to be not even worth bothering with unless it was a max effort type build. You can liken the difference here using an analogy: going from press-bent exhaust to mandrel bent exhaust is something like a 10%-15% difference, same as this mod you suggest. It will certainly help if it's needed, but lots of people don't need it. If it seems good enough for you after tiny enlargements (that could break through the iron, how thick was this casting again?) when it was unacceptable from the factory (what do those engineers know anyway--didn't you say you were scratching your head trying to figure it out?), then your goal is to achieve something that is (in your mind) 'good enough', well what it if so happens that it was in fact 'good enough' just the way it was when other oiling mods (cam bearing, oil pump) were done? I'm not talking about boosted 340's though, so there's that. Is there anything out there that's honestly perfect, or is it all perception? You could in fact create new oiling problems by doing this, when your goal was to 'fix' the micky mouse factory stuff. What if it didn't break through, but was so paper thin that it got missed and stress caused it to start leaking later on down the road? You could probably bore the engine out so far it breaks through into the water jackets too, but then just sleeve it. I mean, bigger is always better right... (I could have some Freudian fun with this entire theme, but I won't) You're not changing my mind because I have facts, and I'm not changing yours because you have anecdotal paranoia. I used to call it preference, but now after a re-think, I'm going to have to go with advising against it unless you're going max effort. Thank you for helping me change my mind, though it might not have been in the direction you would go. Derek even went out of his way to insult me, so I must be on to something here. I like you Jim, so I'm gonna call this the finish line on this little debate. Peace brother.
Nah. I'm hedging my bet in the literally ZERO oil pressure the engine had because of the missing plugs. I ran the thing through the entire break in cycle with nary 1 single psi. Plus I drove it around a few miles before the lifters started tapping. Zero PSI hot, cold, 5k rpm nadda. Installed the plugs, 25 hot idle, rising gradually to 60-65ish at 6k. SO. To sum up this stupid argument: Oil mods are not necessary upto a point. They do nothing but good, but if done wrong can ruin the block. For something that needs to be that precise with VERY little margin for error, I certainly won't be attempting it, probably ever. Especially not with my SP block.
What if you did break through going larger and had to sleeve it using a simple water pipe. What about the thickness of that pipe? Wouldn't it bring the diameter of the oil passage back down to close to factory anyway, making the whole ordeal moot? What about the end of the pipe that's now occupying the hogged out oil journal creating an abrupt edge for the oil to eddy past, creating turbulence? What type of clearance would you suggest between the drilled oil passage and the pipe? How snug would it have to be pressed/tapped in with a hammer? What if oil seeped past it in-between it and the block because the oil passage had a 'curve' in it where previous attempts to get it straight and/or a failed circumnavigation created an uneven passage for the pipe? What about the material difference between the block and the pipe (unless you used a nodular iron pipe--do those exist?) which could create expansion coefficient differences? What if the clearance between the pipe and the block was a tad bit too tight, and pressing it in there caused micro fractures in the cast iron, because now it's paper thin? There's more to it than simply knowing how to operate a simple drill. Good thing cheap drill bits never break, eh? That would be the end of the operation right there, and now you got a boat anchor. Devil's advocate here, but you gotta take it all into consideration.
Guys.. I'm not doing the oil mods. there is a risk of all going wrong. and although I can operate a lathe, a mill, MIG and TIG weld, fabricate, etc.... I will not attempt to drill it, simply because there will be a small amount of risk of things going wrong. I don't live in the US. if things go wrong, it's not a case of easily finding a part I need to rectify. Seeing as the way I drive is gentle, it's not worth the risk to maybe gain a little bit more oil pressure. I will add new gears, the shim kit, the oil plate booster and the oil pressure regulator - But I will not be doing any drilling. I hope you all can understand I cannot take the risk when if things go wrong can put everything to a halt and me ending up setting fire to the whole thing and claim on insurance. Hahahahaha
I'll bite, just for fun. Mild steel is so close to COE of iron it wouldn't matter (but the rate being different however there isn't combustion heat there), it would follow a curve (thin tube), the gaps filled with liberal use of loctite if need be (you wouldn't), still sealing to the block (light press fit, after enlarging even further to account for the tubing wall), end of the tube easily beveled to match the drill/reamer lead angle but I'm not sure vena contracta applies in this case, many other blocks survive a step from machining both ends towards the middle. A high speed steel drill bit can cut a couple thousand holes in cast iron with a machine, much less by hand. They have to be terrible quality and ham handedly pushed to break and if so big deal, easy fix. I'm certain it could be pushed out with a welding rod and if really need be, then an access hole plugged with a pipe plug (afterwards) from down the line somewhere...etc. etc... The industrial market has companies doing nothing but fixing castings, due to ridiculous cost and expensive down time, public completely oblivious to them. I thought I would see some voodoo black magic mojo, but instead saw and learned very basic and clever ways about things. It's been done on the pressure side of Nailheads and probably many more times in BBC (after busting through long stroker clearancing jobs) I probably missed a bit, just pointing out the simplicity of things. Agree that it isn't really needed but wouldn't hurt. I admire tenacity in the spirit of debate. Have a great day
Sounds like a Codependent family fight here....which one is NPD Dad? We're not alcoholics, we just have a few drinks Just kidding, lol.
JP, don't get upset, Gary's just preaching and making mountains out of molehills. Please, somebody give me even ONE example where somebody broke through when drilling out the suction galley. (plus how they did it) Maybe you've heard about it, I certainly have not. I said IF, not when. Certainly Gary has never done it. Please stick to the facts. 1/2" copper tube has a 1/2" bore. Is that not larger than 7/16"? Flush on one end, the other gets cut when you drill and chamfer the hole to the pickup. Nothing difficult about it. It's a SUCTION line, with less than 15psi applied externally. A little anerobic sealant at the ends and you're golden. In the very, very unlikely event that you ever had to do that. Which you shouldn't if you are paying attention. Curved holes???!!! WHAT? You seriously think anybody but me is ever going to do that? No. How? Please stick to the facts. A 7/16" dia. hole has 0.150 square inches of area. 1/2" is 0.196", 9/16 is 0.249" and 5/8 is 0.306". So even the smallest increment has an almost 30% increase in flow capability. Or the flow of a 1/2" hole is reduced by 25% going to 7/16" depending on how you choose to calculate it. Either way it's significantly higher than the 10-15% quoted, and 5/8" doubles the flow at the same head pressure. I see that the point about less than 15psi being available to feed the pump was totally ignored, yet it is the single most relevant factor in this discussion. Let's consider some additional factors. How high above the oil level do you think the pump is? 6 inches maybe? OK, so how far above it under hard acceleration with a stock engine? Can we say a foot? Surely that is reasonable. OK you are going to lose perhaps as much as one psi right there pushing the oil uphill to the pump. Not that you have much to work with and can spare it, but it's incremental right? Incremental losses don't mean anything? Fine, what if we're not at seal level? Lose another 1psi maybe? Barometer's reading low today, oops there goes another one. So now we're down 3 psi. Parker Hannafin rates the max inlet vacuum for their gear pumps at 5 and 10psi. Surely they are no less efficient than the Buick oil pump, I would venture to say they are considerably better in fact. If we're optimistic and take the higher figure, minus 3, we're now trying to push the oil through with 7psi max of positive working pressure. Or if I was arguing the way some people have recently taken to, I'd use the 5psi figure and tell you you only have 2psi to work with. That has to force the oil through that long, restricted passageway with 90 degree bends, sharp edges, restrictions and voids with many eddies along the way. Will it work? Well clearly under ideal conditions it does. Could it be improved? Obviously. So the real question is should you? Should you in fact improve ANYTHING on the car? I think the fact that we are even here gives this a "yes" answer, but; There you have to look at cost vs benefits. What is the cost? A drill bit, some time and a small amount of education, plus a little quality time spent with a die grinder. Why exactly is that too much for a stock rebuild? I'm sorry, I thought you were spending more time and money than that on degreasing the block. I didn't realize you had such a sharp cutoff. What do you do if a bolt snaps off? Call it quits because you'll have to spend time and money to remove the broken piece? I think your logic is flawed. Jim
Right!!! which one of you want to come to England in January to do all that drilling? I'll take you round to see Stonehenge stones (about 15min from me) and a few country side pubs with great beers!
Actually... a question about oil! because someone posted it quite a few pages ago and now I cant find it... Someone had shown how they had a T fitting where the oil pressure gauge goes on the block. It was a T in the block which then connected to oil pressure light and oil pressure gauge. I would like to know what kind of fitting that is, to see if I can get it here or will have to get from US with the matching gauges for whatever thread type the fitting has. thanks!
