wasn't only the metal bits, the oil pickup was full of silicon gasket bits inside, clogging it completely. as the other said, as the revs are going to go higher, and for peace of mind, and seeing as it out, I might as well do the mod as it's not a big job to do. and I have till January for the parts to get here anyway
Just order the rear main seal from T/A. It is the same exact part that NAPA carries for 460 Ford truck. I had both seals, and the part #s etc. are molded onto both parts. Plus it was cheaper from T/A , and they include the rubber wedges and nail shaped pins that go in the grooves on both sides of the cap block.
is it this one here? - http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_1515 TA 1515? thank you, i'll search for it and put on my favorites. Another quick question... I have been reading on some other threads and then a FAQ done by Larry this week, awesome write up.. should I buy the shim kit for the oil pump? didn't realise there was so much tecnicality about putting the oil pump together and oil pressure is crucial as I'm almost sure it was that who damaged my engine.. http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_1704 I was down the workshop today to get the crank out. do you guys think I'll need a timing gear set? mine looks pretty new, not worn at all.. if I do.. do I really need the one with the 3 key ways? the other one is so much cheaper.... and got the crank out... can see quite a bit of debris in the oil passage, what looks like bits of the gasket remains that were stuck in the oil pickup..
No need for a 3 wat keyway timing set... That just allows fine tuning of the cam degree setting... Yes get the "oil pump rebuild kit" from ta as it has various thickness gaskets to dial in your clearances. Yes thats the ta part number for the rear main... Yes the oil pump is critical.. I am usung a belt driven oil pump to replace the stock setup which is less than ideal...
That's the seal I ordered. I used Sean's instruction thread along with JW's thread. Worked great! There is also instructions with T/A's kit. NAPA was about $10 more for the seal only.
Ok.. I'll get the normal timing set with only 1 keyway then. I won't need fine tuning as my engine is not going to be race thing.... your engine looks serious!! that oil pump setup is mental! Looking at mine it does look pretty new.... so is it worth buying? Right... I didn't know the "oil pump rebuild kit" came with the gaskets, that's good to know, I already had that part number on my list, so won't need to buy separate shims. thank you.
You won’t know if cam needs fine tuning until you degree it and make sure it’s ground correctly. They can be off. And you won’t know if you need the shim kit until you measure the gear clearance.
oh ok.. so did I understand it wrong? I thought what Sean was saying was that the shim kit was in the "oil pump rebuild kit" as in could be bought separate of if buying the kit, its included. is that not the case?
There is a gasket. Doesn’t mean you will have correct clearance. It needs to be measured . You can take your chances and slap it together but it it has low oil pressure hot you will have to check it then.
The oil pump rebuild kit and the shim kit then you will have all the various thickness gaskets to fine tune the clearances... http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_1704
In regards to camshaft indexing: Taking it all into consideration, even if the cam is off by 2*-3* in either direction, isn't going to affect its intended purposes enough to really matter in this particular circumstance. It's when cam grinds are off by 4* or more that they begin to really affect things, which is why 3 keyway gears are made (which allow 4* shifts in either direction to get it closer to spec), with 9 keyway gears being the most accurate for all the anal-retentive builders. Remember that air flow in an engine is dynamic and not static, and that things do not have to be absolutely perfect for a general purpose build. The TA 212-350 cam is versatile enough to be able to be placed within a nice wide spectrum and still be quite functional. This is also similar of the stock cam, which has a very wide function pattern that can be utilised with varying air flows and compression ratios, and is much more forgiving than tighter spec cam grinds. Anyway, TA (last I heard) has their cams ground 'straight up', with no advance or retard 'ground into' or 'built into' the cam itself. This means that lining up the dots on a cam gear is supposed to put the cam in a neutral position, with no advance or retard, unlike other cam manufacturers, who tend to build 4* advance into the cams. What this means is that the lobe specs are the same as any other cam that does not have advance built into them, but the end of the cam that bolts to the cam gear is offset by 4* so that lining up the dots is supposed to place the cam at 4* advance instead of a neutral position. The FM cs647 cam has a retard position @.006 and an advance setting @.050, which are actually ground into the lobes themselves (asymmetric lobes), which other cam manufacturers can do for maximizing power. I think Comp Cams does this on some of their grinds, or at least something similar. So cues are taken from FM engineering to squeeze more power out of higher lift, tighter spec cams. Not sure who all does this, but it's more common to see symmetric lobe profiles on aftermarket performance grinds, presumably because it's simpler to design and implement. Moving forward, we know that smaller batches of cams tend to be less than accurate on advertised specs, while larger, more industrialized batches (OEM) tend to be more accurate due to implementation simplicity, which is important for bolting things together in a mass assembly environment. I think that a single keyway timing gear would suffice, providing it wasn't so far off as to make the cam grind a completely different cam than what was advertised. But how would one know for sure unless it was actually measured? Exactly. How can you trust something to be accurate enough unless it has a history of being such? Second, once it's measured and if it's discovered to be off spec so far as to be out of tolerance, how would one go about correcting this without a multi-key gear? This is considering as much as 3* in either direction, putting IVC @.006 in a range from 67*-73* on the TA 212-350 in its 'straight up' position, which would be fine for a compression ratio over 9:1 using stock '69 heads, which flow close to 200 CFM right out of the mold. If you were a gambling person, your bets would be fairly safe with this. Things to consider.
Oh and in regards to oiling and stock cam specs... I can't say for sure, but I have read in multiple instances that stock oiling is marginal on the big blocks, but was fine for the small blocks, providing you don't go too radical on the build. Of course, any mods you can do for the oiling will only improve things, and so is added insurance. Stock cams that have a 'max redline' of 4000 RPM do not exist as far as I know, even when considering the ultra tiny Melling sbc-11 cam, which peaks @4000, and is perfectly capable of revving to 5500 (though would just be RPM as this point). Melling sbc-5 and Federal Mogul cs647 cams peak at 4500-4800 (depending on air flow and compression) and can easily pull well beyond 5200 RPM, which falls in line with the Crower level 3 and TA 212-350 cams with advance install points. Various (and numerous) reports, including my own personal testimony, indicate these older (Quadrajet equipped) 350's with either stock or OEM replica cams have best shift points between 5100-5300 RPM, and revs to 6000 aren't out of the question. All on stock oiling with no issues. Anyways, my usual 2c.
Gary.... wow! your posts amaze me everytime with the amount of information they have! thanks for that very very detailed explanation on the cam ins and outs. I will still with the 1 keyway timing gear and probably use the existing one as that this looks literally brand new with no wear marks at all. A little saving that helps..... I will post some photos later. As I won't have the parts till January, I have started cleaning up the engine ready to paint... Crank has been sent to engineering shop to get it ground.... I'm going to have to wait about 2 weeks to hear from them and how much they have ground before I order all the parts from TA.
Yikes! Don't grind the crank until you have bearings in a block measured or you are asking for trouble. You can measure the crank for now with a caliper if need be and know that you have plenty of material to get to the next undersize. Each .010" is a MILE to the grinder and it's rare to have deep enough gouges to surpass any single increment. If you do, just order the next size down and have the grinder size to that. If really unsure and concerned about shipping bearings then get two sets of bearings.
How come? I thought if the engineering shop grind the cam 0.010, then I'll just get those bearings, if they need see that is not enough and have to grind more then they'll go to 0.020 and i'll get those bearings? isn't that the way it works?
No. Why would you pay for that twice? Give them the number to hit the first time. Why would you follow a plan that is a blind guess with little chance of perfect success? The block's main bores have a tolerance range. There's a tolerance range to the crank journals. The bearings themselves might vary depending on brand or a slight amount from production run or subcontracted source. The block's main bores might not be in perfect alignment, requiring more clearance. All of these "tenths" add up to either make your crank too tight or zero oil pressure, with a strong chance of randomly ending up somewhere in between. Do people do it this way? Yes and I can't imagine why anymore. Nor do I feel sorry when things go differently than planned. You used to be able to get away with it way back with more consistent parts sources and quality oriented shops being the norm (not to say your shop isn't, just that there are too many variables beyond their control). What's the tolerance range for final clearance? Something like .0002-.0032"? I guess if you are OK with that...it will live.
When partially machined jobs came to me, it was with an understanding that I might reject the parts or previous machining and to count on paying for some things twice or set aside that part for a different project.
I agree... The first step is to have the machine shop inspect all the parts. Then they will tell you roughly how much the crank needs to be cut and how much the block needs to be bored. Then you can order the rebuild parts and bearings... Then the shop installs the bearings in the block and rods and measures the inside diameter of the bearings. Then they subtract the desired bearing clearances and then cut the crank to that spec. Then you get the right oil clearances. Sometimes the main journals of the block need to be align honed, or other times it needs to be bored out. The rods need to be re-sized in most cases as well. I agree with Gary, I have never done oiling mods to the block on any of my mild engines and never had an issue with any of them even at 6000 RPM over the years. I use the high volume oil pump on some engines and never had an issue with that or a stock oil pump. That being said for my serious engine I went with a belt driven oil pump, but that is a $10,000+ engine not a mild setup.
