Cam degree issue losing my mind!!!!!!!!!!!!

Makes that little normally aspirated small block in my signiture look a little better now huh ?LOl

 

Nick

What are you thinking?
Have you decided a course to proceed from here?

Paul

 

have to give you lots of credit, super job on that one :TU:

 

Paul
You never commented on what i wrote above about the disparity among the cams and them still needing to run thesame sprig rate as well as what the current spring package is and how it looks to you?
There is also the little issue of Lunati taking back the cam,as im not exactly made of money,should i decide to go a different route altogether
Nick

 

I did give an answer in a roundabout way. Maybe there is an epiphany in there after all.

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.p...2242-Compu-Pro-camshaft&p=2152652#post2152652

If you look at what I wrote in other post you will notice there is no mention of spring pressures based on a cam size as in lift or duration,
only ramp angles as you travel over a lobe from seat to seat. The discussion was also with the understanding that the focus was on cams in the .500 lift range.

A family of cams such as VooDoo, Xtreme and so on can have the same series of ramp angles as you travel over the lobe. The profiles, as you go up in size in the series, just get higher and wider as though the first lobe in the series was simply lifted higher from the base circle by adding material under it.
Nothing changes as far as ramp angles. The lifter just gets to travel a little further over the larger lobe

If the valve lift in the series varies enough so that the open valve spring height of the shortest profile gets too far away from coil bind or the tallest gets too close to coil bind then there is a need for 2 different springs. TA does that with the Stage1 and the Stage1+ springs.

It has to do with how steep the ramp angle is as the lifter approaches the lobe top and how steep going down the closing side.

Not Really!
They are a partial sampling of a wide range of different lobe series available from the Master lobe catalog.
TA will grind you a much wider variety of cams than what is showing in the catalog.
Those were just some popular offerings that they were willing to stock.

I think that the spring package you have now 130 seat 350 open is close enough for the lobe ramp angles and the slightly less than recommended
spring pressure will give the hyd lifters a chance to operate at 5000 rpm.
You know that if you don't try the Lunati cam it will bug you.

You just need to get on the guy doing the head work. Kick him in the a#@ and get him moving.

Paul

 

Paul
I said the springs were 130-315 open
IRONICALLY A CLOSE FRIEND RUNS A COMP XE274 in his 455
I helped set up the heads,so i know for a fact he runs 100 seat and 295 open comp single springs that came in the comp master cam kit
Car is set up by the governer to shift at 5400 in drive on 1-2 and 2-3 shifts
Runs great,no signs of float anywhere
What gives ?
I believe that i d like to try the same Ultradyne cam i had in my 350,but not sure it would clear ray:
Or i could throw it together and run it and be content not caring :ball:

 

Nick, I am not sure that I buy in to that its the cam cores. The last 5 cams I have bought have been from Scott Brown @ http://www.buyracingparts.com/ and they all have been bang on with no base circle run out.

What cylinder heads are you using? And what are the flow #'s?

The reason we degree a cam is to make sure it is ground where it should be, if not that is why they make adjustable timing gear and chain sets.

Also Nick I read in another post you make about spring pressure. You need to keep in mind that these BBB valves are heavy, are your springs TA 1125's? If so they will have a red stripe. I would stick them in @ 130psi + on the seat and 300+ ish over the nose on alot of the street type cams but depending on the ramp I have ran them up around the 150 range . Break it in with the inner spring removed. Sorry, I didn't read all the post so correct me if I miss read or didn't see flow#s etc.

 

Nick

I meant to type 315 but...

If you are not going to run Lunati then you need to run a single profile cam as we discussed earlier.
Can you get your money back if you return the Lunati?
What are the specs on the Ultradyne?

Did my last reply answer your questions?

Paul

 

Springs are dual assy with no wiggle retainers
They were on the heads when i bought them form Mike @ AMP
Not sure what the brand is
They were setup at 130-315# when i received them
Heads should be in the 240-250cfm range int and mid 150-160cfm range exh when im theyre done
Poss higher depending on time spent, and how far into the port i want to go
The bowl is where most of the time has been spent so far,as well as the factory iron intake wil need some work to move much more air
i suppose i could start putting some pics up or spmething but dont want to bore people with my stock type junk

 

Nickev, I would like to see some pictures of that factory stuff:TU:
Yes, I am addicted to my grinder:Brow:

 

Give me a littel credit here,as i was the one who stated the single pattern cam 1st p
But all kidding aside i do believe in doing it the way it will be happiest the 1st time around
As well as ,being stubborn in your ideas doesnt always mean its necessary to be reinventing the wheel
Looked at Ultradynes master list toady and i kinda like cam lobe H5
But i havent ruled out poss going with the one you mentioned earlier Paul

 

The H5s advertised duration is @ .0045" while the TAs is @ .006" so the H5 and the TAs 232 duration lobe are almost identical.
The lobe lifts are only .0016" different also.

TA will grind the cam on a 108 LSA for Denver use.

I've not used an Ultradyne cam so I can't compare the quality.

Paul

 

Paul, I understand what you are saying here about Nick using a single pattern cam but I don't think I can agree. If Nick ends up in the area of what he has posted for air flow #'s he will have a I/E ratio around 60%, and then on top of that (correct me if I am wrong) he is using stock exhaust manifolds? I would think the exhaust side still needs help.

 

Normally at sea level you wold want to hang that exhaust valve open longer to compensate for the manifolds
But when you do that up here,you also end up drawing too much fresh charge out of the cylinder during overlap,which kills cylinder pressure
And up here,cylinder pressure is paramount
Thats why tighter lobe sep angles work so well up here to boost bottom end and midrange torque
You have to look at it as
1-a wider lobe sep angle will kill bottom end torque up here dueto low cyl pressure and lack of torque from being so far down on power
2-theengine wont rpm because the manifold wont allow it to scavenge at hi rpms anyhow
3-so you cam it so it builds a bunch of cylinder psi down low because your never going to turn it hi anyhow,so you might as well run a cam that makes as much power within the rpm range your trying to achieve
Believe me,id love to have back the free 25-30 hp plus that much in torque that a set of headers would give,but that isnt going to happen in the chassis i own so.............................
Good evening

---------- Post added at 06:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------

Actually i said it 1st he just agreed :laugh:

 

Nick

Hey; since the gas companies reduce the gas octane in your area, does that mean they also reduce the price??

Paul

 

I am not sure why you guys are so focused on the cam profile without knowing the I/E ratio, flow #s etc.

 

Uh.............. NO
Nice try mr Paul

Oh Bullet now owns Ultradyne,so thats who will be grinding that cam if i choose it


Again,IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT THE I/E% IS IN THE HEADS
THIS OR ANY OTHER ENGINE, AT THIS ALTITUDE, W STOCK MANIFOLDS, WILL NOT TOLERATE LARGE SPLITS IN DURATION :TU:
Thats why those who dont live here will never get it o No:

 

I'm adding to what Nick said so you can see the whole thought process.

The cam specs are being chosen by looking at ALL the GIVEN rather than focusing on any one particular thing like I/E ratio.

The #1 given is to work with what Nick already has and to not spend a lot of money changing a bunch of stuff.

Having said that we are looking at a 10:1 compression ratio with the present piston and head combination.
Since the gas companies have already partially compensated for the altitude by lowing the octane in the area the decision is to stay with an 8:1 DCR.
This puts the intake valve closing on the seat at 66 degrees ABDC when using a 104 ICL when installing the cam.
This sets the advertised duration at a 284 degree minimum.

The converter stall is around 3000 rpm so we want to keep the overlap marginally less than 20 degrees so the power comes on before 3000 rpm.
A 16 degree limit on overlap will provide that. There are other reasons for staying below 20* for street use.

With a 108 LSA and a 16 degree limit on overlap the most duration you can have is a 232 average between the intake and exhaust.
You can split that anyway you need to. Examples: 230/234, 231/233, 232/232, ect..
Nick is choosing to use an even split or a straight pattern cam for the reasons he stated. (It was his idea first :Smarty

Nick stated that he doesn't care about pushing the power peak much past 5000 rpm, 5200 might be a good place or whatever
which means the head port flow ratio is the least important.
If the goal was to push the peak power to optimum for a given induction system then yes, the focus would be more towards the I/E ratio.
If you fall short of the optimum you lose some upper rpm power but you actually gain some lower which is what Nick wants anyway.
Also consider that the stock exhaust manifold doesn't represent as much restriction when the amount of exhaust volume has been reduced thanks to the high altitude.

Just as a side note, I expect Nick's port work to give closer a 65% E/I at mid lift.

That's Kinda the wide overview at this moment.

Paul

 

idk, I think it would be cool to see some of them pictures. I like to see what makes the heads and intake pick up TQ and HP:TU:

 

I have some where around $20K into my SF-750 and all the fixer's, computer programs, head stand etc etc. Paul how can you say nick's port work will have a 65% I/E ratio without the intake, heads and exhaust manifolds ever seeing a flow bench? I do understand stand what it takes to run at @ high altitude. Regardless where you are, up there or down here you need to know all the #s before making a cam choice. Without all the data you might as well be swing that cam around in a circle waiting to hit a golden goose egg. Please no more yelling at me. If you guys were close by I would flow all your parts for free so you understand where I am coming from........