Cam degree issue losing my mind!!!!!!!!!!!!

So ....................'
I installed my new cam today and went about degreeing it
using the centerline method

Cam is ground on a 110 l/sep
Designed to be ran at 106 intake c/line
That should put the exhaust at 114 centerline
Something here doesnt add up
I have checked top dead center and 0* on the degree wheel 20 times today,im seeing circles lol


I installed the chain and started dot to dot to get a baseline
Came in at 97* int centerline-waaaay advanced
Crank gear only has 3 positions so i ran the 4* retard and it cam in at 101* -which makes sense,although i was under the impression alot of these aftermarket chains actually moce things 8* ?
Tried a stock chain thinking i may have a bad chain
It came in at 101* as well-which would mean the 1st chain was over advancing things by 4*
So im kinda perpelexed here
Exh came in at 119*
Is the chain off,or does it have too much advance ground into it?

Edelbrock chain
Lunati cam-68002
Up till now ive never had a cam give me fits like this before
Kind of confused as to why it could be so far off,but yet still come out the same with two diff chains ,installed in 2 diff positions
Im all ears ???????????????????

 

Try another cylinder and see if the readings are the same.

 

Nick

Went through something similar on the last cam we installed.
We had to move the crank gear over one tooth on the chain.
How many teeth are on the crank gear?

Paul

 

Are the heads off or on? How are you finding TDC?

 

Nick.,.. I just went thru this with a sbb 310 t/a cam, thought I was losing my mind,. the cam was ground wrong at like 100* on the intake CL and was looking for 106* for intake CL using a 3 keyway crank gear double roller chain...called Rob Ross and he said he went thru this with a bbb 455 cam couple yrs ago and it was the 3 key way crank gear or the cam,.. he then bought t/a's 9 keyway crank gear and finally got it degreed in right,.. the cam was ground wrong..

I then bought the t/a 350 9 keyway crank gear and finished it today...I still had to put it 6* retard for it to degree in at 106* intake CL...

You might have to get a t/a crank gear..

BTW..you can get a TDC locator that screw's in the spark plug hole in the head from jegs for $28.00,.. thats what i did,..

good luck, jerrold..

 

why not just send the cam back to lunati

 

buy a 9 keyway chain from ta save yourself the trouble, found 3 key ones are not accurate

 

Im using a piston stop/bridge across the block
No heads installed
In fact i only have the crank in and 2 pistons on opposite corners ,to ck things after the block was decked to verify compression,as well as ck piston to valve clearance before i put all 8 slugs in and then figure out they need fly cut
i suppose ill try another crank gear/chain 1st,but im kinda upset if it ends up being cam related
As well as i just degreed it today,so i couldnt send it back to or call Lunati to verify the issue like some suggested
Ill try somethings tomorrow and see if they pan out
If not i guess the project is delayed again some more
Oh well,the fun continues
Sometimes when the things that should be simple go wrong,i dont like engines for a little while :af:
Thanks all who responded,and I might pm you Paul to discuss the 1 tooth idea if you dont mind
Good night

 

Nick

Feel free to contact me. Just need to know how many teeth are on the crank sprocket.
I think we can come within 1 degree of 106 with what you have.

Paul

 

I have never used anything but a Kenne Bell cams. I will have to talk to Fred this morning but I have never put the cam in at the exact intake centerline that was on the card. I always think it should be right on the spec of the intake centerline and then I call Fred and he tells me something different and it works. But on the 3 keyway alot of times I go 1 tooth on the crank or on the cam and keep seeing what I get using the advance and retard key to I get it within 2 degrees of what Fred said. I have spent 4 hours on some of my first dial ins and thought I would loose my mind. I don't know if he thinks Lanati cams are like that but I know he probably don't like them. Can you post a pic of the cam card so I can tell him what you got?

 

Paul
The crank gear has 24 teeth
Thanks

 

That means every tooth is 15 degrees of crank rotation.
When you started with the crank sprocket at "0" the cam was at 97 ATDC.

If you set the sprocket at 4 degrees advanced the timing should come in around 93 degrees ATDC.

Now if you roll the crank clockwise skipping one tooth on the timing chain which is 15 degrees, the timing should be around 108.

Try that and see what you actually get.

Make sure you check the .050 lobe lift setting from the cam card.

The intake .050 lobe lift is Open at 7.5 degrees BTDC, Close at 39.5 ABDC

Exhaust closes 2.5 degrees ATDC, opens 50.5 BBDC

Please post your readings.

Best of luck

Paul

 

So I finally had a chance to retry this
I rolled the crank gear over 1 tooth like was suggested and it came in at 108-108.5 which i account to normal tolerances,interpeting the wheel differently,etc
Intake opening came in at 5-5.5* btdc on a 108 c/l which seems correct,again that 1/2 degree is open to interpetation
I assume the chain is built poorly
I contacted Lunati and informed them if with a new chain installed,this wasnt closer ,i would be sending this cam back
They admitted due to limited bb buick cam core availability,that the cam may be off a few degrees :shock:
They said they would take it back,and i may try a different route cam wise

Thank you sirs

 

yea its the cam core, nothing to do with how they grind it.

 

Hey Nick

Nice work!

If you really want to use this cam why not get a Rollmaster 9 key gear set and degree it in?
You can get the timing right between 105 and 106.

The Rollmaster has a better quality chain.
If you look at the rollers on the chain you have now you may see a seam length wise on the roller.
Rollmaster uses an extruded tube for their rollers. No seams.

Paul

 

Hey Paul
I technically can run it this way as the chain doesnt know the difference
I am weary i suppose of the rest of the quality of the components i guess
Also while i have my theories as to why folks have had rpm/power issues with the fast ramp cams,i also dont want to be stubborn/blind to the fact there may be a better alternative
But i also know that with the cubes,and the intake/exhaust constraints i have,i wont be shifting this thing much past 5000-5200 rpm anyhow,so im not sure id ever know the difference anyhow
What part of LI are you from again and how did you get all the way to the left?
Thanks
Nick

 

i also had an issue degreeing my t/a cam in my 455 and had to retard it about 9 degrees to get it to degree in at 106. when i tear the motor down this month i have a comp cam to install and see how that does.

 

put in three comp cams 2 were right on, one was 1* retard

 

Nick

You are right. There is no problem running the cam as it is. The engine doesn't care how you get the cam timing right.
I just thought you might want to get it closer to 106.

Are you using the Lunati beehive springs that match the cam?
Springs PN 74820
Retainer PN 75912

Grew up in East Patchogue. I met my wife on the east coast who is from Spokane WA. So here I am.

Paul

 

Paul
I am using t/a dual springs /no wiggle retainer setup
When i purchased these heads from Amp the were already set up this way,with valves,and
with the current dual springs and retainers
I jst did some bowl work /chamber porting and a slight mill
They are ,(depending on where i put them install height wise),between 115-130 on the seat and 300-315 open
I may be way off,but i would not feel comfy running anywhere near the psi that Lunati wants(155-160 seat psi)
on any hyd flat tappet setup
In fact i have my opinion that this thing would run ok at 5500rpm or less with even less spring than i have now
I was going to pull the inners for a soft break in,then put em back in and hope for the best in a flat tappet setup,and hope the zinc additives do their thing for longevity
Although if i put 5000 miles on this car over a 5yr span that would be alot for me :TU:
Nick