To Joe's point about us minding our own business....let me just say, I love your Riviera. The middle East and the world for that matter, was a VERY different place back in the Jimmy Carter days. Terrorism has a much farther reach with MUCH higher consequences than it had 30 years ago. It's not just a hijacked plane or bus stop bomb once in a blue moon anymore. The leave 'em alone and they'll go away scenario I'm afraid is never going to work again. In fact, I don't believe that scenario ever really works. The middle east is going to be the most crucial part of the world from here on in. It breeds terrorism because of the religious extremist beliefs by some IN THAT region. Turning a blind eye to instability or looming danger in that region will do us much more harm than it will good. You can site anything you want or criticize how it's done, but it's still a fact. We need to stay involved in the problems over there and continue to remain engaged at some or all levels. I agree we can't expect democracy to flourish the "same way" it does here or in England, but history proves that a free society works better and makes people happier because it empowers them to control their own destiny and makes ALL people accountable for their actions by law.
Say what????! It's been documented that Clinton was told they had bin laden located and were ready to take him out....and guess who couldn't pull the trigger for fear of being blamed as doing it to take the spotlight off himself in his time of self-induced crisis???? Yep---your foreign-diplomat-couldn't-keep-it-in-his pants Clinton. Let's see---bin laden gets to live and the result is........ Patton
Scr@# the rest of the world! They don't seem to want to do anything about terrorism. They will always find an escuse to hate us. Why, because we have our s&*t together...relative to the rest of the world, and they are jealous of our power. I would rather take the fight right to the breeding ground than wait for it to come to our shores. Bush did the right thing going into Afghanistan and into Iraq. Nobody said that this wasn't going to get ugly but we need to stick it out and get Iraq on its feet again. If that happens then we still won't be loved but we will have made good on our promises and redeemed ourselves for pulling out of Afghanistan in the 80's and leaving the Shiites high and dry in the first Gulf war. Kerry has no plan plain and simple. He is just telling poeple what he thinks they want to here. He claims to know how to handle this war better than the current admin....well lets here the plan! DB
Yeah and the next natural disaster they have they'll come with their damn hand out wanting USE to help them ... you can blame Bush or not, you can think that Gore would have done better but the bottom line is clean this mess up in 30 days from now and bring our folks home were they belong, protect OUR home land and the hell with the rest of them, you see this all the time, you can be very nice to 10 people and 8 of them will come back ready to dick you for being nice. :spank:
Friends.... Unpleasant as it is... We might as well take a deep breath and get used to it. This conflict was going to happen...and will continue until it is finished...and it's not going to end when we leave....what ever the circumstances they will re-group and in time will go on the offensive again. Thats the way it is!!!! Our troops will continue to "fight the good fight" and be true to the creed until they back out of Iraq... Hopefully soon. Nuke them? Is that really such a good idea? Can we deal with the cumulative guilt as a nation...Again? I'm not so sure. Lets pray it wont lead to that. I understand the anger...and like many who have responded, my flesh is also driven to hate them... Gonna need to do a bunch of praying to make amends...re-read The Book of Revelations perhaps...
Gotta agree w/DB----when every decision we make is arrived at by considering "what the rest of the world thinks of us" we are screwed. Ask yourself.....why does pretty much everyone in the rest of the world want to come here??? Europe: Economies of major nations in perma-decline, overloaded topheavy social benefits programs slowly sinking these countries along with shrinking populations. Heavily regulated economies that can't compete with free market economies. On a positive note, these countries generally like freedom and are mostly "democratic". Russia and offshoots: Russia--the wild west--can't seem to make their minds up---are we going democratic or are we going back to state/centralized control (they seem to revert to their old corrupt methods when things get bad). Fair weather friends at best. Population in decline. Offshoot countries are bright lights in Europe as they seem to embrace more free market systems(Offshoot's motto: We've seen Communism, we've lived Communism/Socialism, it sucks and we want to get as far away from it as possible!) Africa: Pretty much a collection of eternal basket cases--other than a few countries these guys seem to constantly go at it to get control of vast natural resources present in many countries. Form of government: coup of the day. At least these guys don't seem to sugar coat it alot--- we want the _______ mines (plug in valuable natural resource of choice-diamonds, gold, oil, etc) and the money!----none of this mid-east-allah-made-me-do-it b.s here. Good old fashioned corruption. Populations generally increasing without corresponding increase in food supply (ie--look at what happened in Zimbabwe--they went from a large net exporter of food to massive starvation in this latest "changing of the guard") South America---Hey at least we have a few examples of democracy actually trying to work....lots of corruption and poverty but a lot of countries lurching closer to freer market economies. Mexico---America's Africa--population increasing--world class corruption with a little Euro-style overbearing government control driving their largest natural resource into the ground (oil). Pemex- which the government nationalized, is an industry joke. The gov sucks every $$$$ out of it for other programs---all it's technology and equipment is outdated (hmmm--sounds like what we found with the Iraqi oil industry) and they are sucked so dry that they cannot even develop/explore most of the reserves they think they have. Their proven reserve base is rapidly declining as a result---will be out of oil in 10-15 years at present depletion rate. Far East--Largest economy (China) is not a stellar example of freedom (in any form). Home to the 3rd member of the axis of evil-N Korea-a country so far behind the rest of the world it's not even funny. Run by a meglomaniac that wears extra tall shoes because he doesn't like being short. Mixed in are some of our best hopes--Japan, S Korea and Taiwan---western style economies. Countries that actually have some private property rights like the US and economies that generally are growing. Britain/Ireland--doing just fine. Mid-East--boy, what a great place! The whole region speaks for itself---used to be the "cradle of civilization"----damn right!!!--it WAS the cradle and as soon as people got old and smart(and civilized) enough to run, crawl or walk the smart ones got the hell out of there. MAIN PROBLEM--- "used to be" doesn't count, the rest of the world knows it and those that remain there are still pissed off about it. They had it all within their grasp a long, long time ago and let it slip away--however they are still mad and fighting about it...these people really hold a grudge. Populations increasing, wealth in the hands of a few (rulers) and the bs just keeps getting deeper as these ruling "families" try to keep the masses at bay. C'mon guys!!!---this act is getting a little old--running around in massive palaces, dressing up in fancy garb and calling yourselves "royalty" doesn't cut it any more....the act is wearing a little thin. Even your buddy Qaddafi kind of saw the light and ditched his army surplus, gold braided epalaut uniforms with the hat (where the hell do these third world despots come up with those uniforms??!!). Earth to mid-east: Hey guys, we are trying to progress, we have something called freedoms and it doesn't just apply to religious fanatics and the ruling "family"....care to join us? Patton
I agree with Patton. I believe that is a pretty good assessment of the world economy and situation. If you were living in Somalia, Mozambique, Baghdad, Peking, etc. and had the opportunity for you and your family to be transported with nothing to the US, would you not jump at the chance? You bet your ass you would You have to ask yourself why? Everyplace else generally sucks. With dictators, collapsed economies, murder, mayhem and torture why would you want to stay? Now the flip side. If you live here, the UK, Australia, etc and the offer was made to move to Africa, India, China or the middle east would you do it? Its a no brainer. I am definitely not a war monger. I grew up under the shadow of Nam, graduated in '68 and my draft # was3. :moonu: I really hate the fact that we are there, but lets not forget who fired the first shot. Does 911 ring a bell? Anyone who thinks that it would have ended there is being just foolish. They would have and will continue to come at us on our own shore. The President had no choice. I am glad we had a man in office who wasn't afraid to respond to the threat. I have heard of this video but choose not to view it. I have no desire to see any more atrocities. I will say that any person that can do this to another human being deserves to be hunted down and killed like the animal he/she is. But that is a westerner's point of view. Over there the radicals see this a a justified execution of an enemy of their god, and they now have a better seat up their heaven because they did it. According to my God their seat is in a much warmer climate. What that video depicts has gone on over there for centuries. Saddam and his cronies have been doing that and much worse to those people for years and years. They have been raping, torturing and murdering women and children for decades. Where is the outrage for those atrocities? My brother in law is there now. He has been there over a year and every day we pray its not his name on the news. He was home over Thanksgiving and he said that the civilians that he has had contact with thank the soldiers for saving them . He feels very strongly that this was a correct move and that we needed to get Saddam out of power and free the Country. 3 others that I have personally talked to have said the same thing. I have never met anyone who served in the Nam that said we should have been there. Should we be there? Yes Do we need to finish it? Yes
I have read most of what everyone has said and my bibical beliefs are coming even more clear. The world started there it will end there. Oil is the vessil that brings us there. The US has it's own oil reserve.ALASKA. But why has it been so hard to find another source to run ower cars on . Corn grows every where. Look it's coming and if you don't believe look around ! The hour is at hand. I pray for the young men and women over there and here.
It ain't over yet... Dude, That was probably true, but for most of us with an Airline career, it is still collapsing. My company is nearing bankruptcy. The industry is losing billions and with oil as high as it is there will be much more trouble ahead. Most airlines are in a tailspin. We went from earning a billion a year in 1999, to losing a billion a year. I am not sure where things will finally bottom out, but as far as I am concerned there has been only collapse since 9/11. One thing is for sure. Our business can ill afford another event like 9/11. On a national level I think the effects are not truly realized. The Bush administration is spending money like a drunken sailor in a strip-bar after 9 months at sea. It will take years for that to bear out. I think the country is still absorbing the loss of all that happened, and I don't think just because the stock market climbed back over 10k that everything is just peachy. The "former" airlines of this nation:spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:
I really wish i wasnt so curious... My now ex girlfriends step dad is in baghdad(sp) and he came back a few weeks ago for a vacation. I saw pictures of killed iraqis, body parts.. headless men.. i actually saw a guy with his face blown off... the face still had an eyeball staring into the camera... the point is, that didnt bother me a bit because they werent american, and they were known enemies. When i watched this CIVILLIAN get killed i had to swallow some vomit while holding back tears. He did nothing to them, we need to have someone translate the speech that animal gave. I havent been able to sleep well since i saw it and have been having nightmares about it.. just.. wow he didnt deserve this and this should never have leaked to the media! We cannot force democracy on these people, i say, find the terrorist leaders, kill them, pull out, and let them do what they want.. i dont think it was our place to go into iraq in the first place.. bush just wanted to finish daddy's problem with sadaam.. hes in our custody now so why cant we leave? -Josh
Josh, as others and I have stated before, we can't just pull out and leave, when our entire economy and infrastructure is based on oil consumption. If you think things are bad now, how do you think they would be if a meglomaniac dictator or theocrat that has a real hangup about the US controlled that entire regions suply of oil? We are better taking these turds out now while they are still not fully capable of causing us much harm. Also, pulling out would only strengthen the terrorists idea that we are a weak people that can't stomach seeing the spilled blood of our own. The reason why their attacks got bigger and bolder leading up to 9-11 was because they knew they could do it with impunity. Bush changed that and now these dirt bags have to hide behind masks and are living in caves because they know they will end up on the wrong side of an M4 carbine as soon as they see the light of day.
You people have to be reminded that your not the only ones over there, Australia certainly isn't laughing at you. We have the worlds largest population of moslems living on our backdoor!! Indonesia They have killed our people in Bali and and that silly old idiot that started it has called for the killing of any Australians there. We recently tharwted an attempt on the international school in Jakarta. We still have troops in East Timor. We will be and have been in every major conflict that the US has been in since WW1. We have only 20 million people in Australia and we ain't scared of terrorist cowards or anybody else!! Remember your not in this alone.
Berg's Father fervently anti-war GoldBoattail455 said:His father just came out and said that Donald Rumsfeld and Bush are to blame for his sons deaths. According to this Jewish newspaper, Berg's Dad was totally against the war and even part of a group called Answer. Here is the Jewish newspaper link: http://www.forward.com/main/article.php?ref=eden20040512821 Link to Answer: http://www.internationalanswer.org/ It really looks like the son was going the opposite way of his father on the whole war situation. I also found some good stuff supporting the real reason we are there. It seems Senator Ernest Hollings has been making some pretty bold statements: http://hollings.senate.gov/~hollings/statements/2003B03C41.html http://www.jta.org/brknewsticker.asp?id=107683&ref=JTA http://www.charleston.net/stories/050604/com_06hollings.shtml You may have to register to read the last link. I did and it was worth it. This guy is shooting strait! I suppose there are still a few left inside the belt-way. :TU:
We will be and have been in every major conflict that the US has been in since WW1. We have only 20 million people in Australia and we ain't scared of terrorist cowards or anybody else!! Remember your not in this alone. Let's hear it for the Aussies!!! You guys have been with us thru thick and thin. Humping the Owen Stanley range in WWII called for men of great courage. In 'Nam you took your lumps with us also. Hoist one for Australia!:beer
